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burjwahzeh
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PostPosted: Mon May 07, 2012 11:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jefrey A. Brother wrote:
...Bourgie, your comparison to white ball isn't the same. Not allowing players to test the wind would be one the biggest mistake that the rule gurus could ever make. Understanding wind when playing DG is a skill.

This is a joke.
I'm not saying you can't test the wind. I'm saying you can't alter the course to do it. The whole grass thing is classic. You'd never let someone rip out waist-high grass to test the wind. Where do you draw the line? Knee height? Ankle height? Or just don't rip out the grass?
If you use the obstacles and relief rules as a definition for what course features are, you could fling dead grass clippings, leaves, and twigs without risk of penalty. Just don't pull out the grass.
And I agree, understanding wind is an important skill. However, gaining that understanding shouldn't require destruction of anything.
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PostPosted: Mon May 07, 2012 11:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

burjwahzeh wrote:
Jefrey A. Brother wrote:
Anyone who uses the dirt to take the moisture off their hands would fall into the same BS "ruling".
No. You're specifically allowed to prevent slipping. You aren't damaging anything.


And you aren't damaging anything by ripping up grass.

We all know this rule was written to stop vandalism and improving your lie or shot.
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burjwahzeh
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PostPosted: Mon May 07, 2012 11:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

All of this got me thinking about some other great wind testing devices. Like white fluffy dandilions. Who would complain about anyone picking those? So much more useful that a pinch of torn grass...
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PostPosted: Mon May 07, 2012 11:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

burjwahzeh wrote:
Jefrey A. Brother wrote:
...Bourgie, your comparison to white ball isn't the same. Not allowing players to test the wind would be one the biggest mistake that the rule gurus could ever make. Understanding wind when playing DG is a skill.

This is a joke.
I'm not saying you can't test the wind. I'm saying you can't alter the course to do it. The whole grass thing is classic. You'd never let someone rip out waist-high grass to test the wind. Where do you draw the line? Knee height? Ankle height? Or just don't rip out the grass?
If you use the obstacles and relief rules as a definition for what course features are, you could fling dead grass clippings, leaves, and twigs without risk of penalty. Just don't pull out the grass.
And I agree, understanding wind is an important skill. However, gaining that understanding shouldn't require destruction of anything.


You stop when the grass is an "obstacle". This isn't. So could I test with dead pine needles? Or dead grass? This is fine?!?

There is NO destruction from ripping grass!
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PostPosted: Mon May 07, 2012 11:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

burjwahzeh wrote:
All of this got me thinking about some other great wind testing devices. Like white fluffy dandilions. Who would complain about anyone picking those? So much more useful that a pinch of torn grass...


Why is this OK?
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burjwahzeh
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PostPosted: Mon May 07, 2012 11:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jefrey A. Brother wrote:
...And you aren't damaging anything by ripping up grass.

We all know this rule was written to stop vandalism and improving your lie or shot.

The grass might have something to say about that. smile
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burjwahzeh
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PostPosted: Mon May 07, 2012 11:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jefrey A. Brother wrote:
burjwahzeh wrote:
All of this got me thinking about some other great wind testing devices. Like white fluffy dandilions. Who would complain about anyone picking those? So much more useful that a pinch of torn grass...


Why is this OK?

It shouldn't be OK. But if ripping grass out is okay, why not some weeds?
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andros
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PostPosted: Mon May 07, 2012 11:18 am    Post subject: Re: Using Grass to test the wind Reply with quote

Thumber wrote:
Just saw on DGCR....


Link?
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PostPosted: Mon May 07, 2012 11:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

burjwahzeh wrote:
Jefrey A. Brother wrote:
...And you aren't damaging anything by ripping up grass.

We all know this rule was written to stop vandalism and improving your lie or shot.

The grass might have something to say about that. smile


No it won't, cause it doesn't talk.

Wearing cleats damages more. Kicking your back foot up when putting damages more. Kicking a rock damages more...wait, could I just say it's an obstacle to my lie and move it? There. Screw you rule breakers, I just found a "loop-hole" to your "loop-hole.
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Thumber
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PostPosted: Mon May 07, 2012 11:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

http://www.dgcoursereview.com/forums/showthread.php?t=60011&page=16

Its a rambling discussion about rules and fake rules.

Its a silly discussion, until it is a pivotal moment in a round and someone pulls this out.

The worst thing is, its not a rule where the card needs to make the call,
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burjwahzeh
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PostPosted: Mon May 07, 2012 11:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jefrey A. Brother wrote:
...You stop when the grass is an "obstacle". This isn't. So could I test with dead pine needles? Or dead grass? This is fine?!?

There is NO destruction from ripping grass!

Curse you, Penton, for leading us back to one of my biggest pet peaves in all of the rules! You know there is no definition for when grass becomes an obstacle. ARG! I hate the rules of disc golf!

Oh, and on those dead pine needles, I'd say if you wanted to avoid controversy, you'd look to use those first.

I'll leave you with this:

"My name is the Lorax, I speak for the grass
I speak for the grass 'cause you treat it like @ss.
Why must you rip it when testing the breeze?
The answers you seek can be found in the trees!
Or try throwing some dust or grass that is dead,
'Cause you know you would protest if I ripped off your head!"
big grin
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Jefrey A. Brother
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PostPosted: Mon May 07, 2012 11:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thumber wrote:
http://www.dgcoursereview.com/forums/showthread.php?t=60011&page=16

Its a rambling discussion about rules and fake rules.

Its a silly discussion, until it is a pivotal moment in a round and someone pulls this out.

The worst thing is, its not a rule where the card needs to make the call,


At least you could complain to the TD at the end of the round to hear their ruling. If I was TDing I'd give a courtesy warning to the jerks who called it and remove the 2 stroke penalty from the grass-rippers card.
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Jefrey A. Brother
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PostPosted: Mon May 07, 2012 11:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

burjwahzeh wrote:
Jefrey A. Brother wrote:
...You stop when the grass is an "obstacle". This isn't. So could I test with dead pine needles? Or dead grass? This is fine?!?

There is NO destruction from ripping grass!

Curse you, Penton, for leading us back to one of my biggest pet peaves in all of the rules! You know there is no definition for when grass becomes an obstacle. ARG! I hate the rules of disc golf!

Oh, and on those dead pine needles, I'd say if you wanted to avoid controversy, you'd look to use those first.

I'll leave you with this:

"My name is the Lorax, I speak for the grass
I speak for the grass 'cause you treat it like @ss.
Why must you rip it when testing the breeze?
The answers you seek can be found in the trees!
Or try throwing some dust or grass that is dead,
'Cause you know you would protest if I ripped off your head!"
big grin


Yeah, except even the Lorax knows that there is no harm done to grass by ripping it or cutting it.

And to your point on avoiding controversy; avoid controversy by not calling stupid shit to just further your own agenda, when what has been done is NOT helping the person who did it.
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Thumber
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PostPosted: Mon May 07, 2012 11:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jefrey A. Brother wrote:
Thumber wrote:
http://www.dgcoursereview.com/forums/showthread.php?t=60011&page=16

Its a rambling discussion about rules and fake rules.

Its a silly discussion, until it is a pivotal moment in a round and someone pulls this out.

The worst thing is, its not a rule where the card needs to make the call,


At least you could complain to the TD at the end of the round to hear their ruling. If I was TDing I'd give a courtesy warning to the jerks who called it and remove the 2 stroke penalty from the grass-rippers card.


On what basis would you give a courtesy warning? Just because you don't like the rule doesn't mean it doesn't exist lol
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lissyssil
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PostPosted: Mon May 07, 2012 11:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

...Yes, but if the grass landed on my bag that I'd left on the green, then what??!?!?
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burjwahzeh
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PostPosted: Mon May 07, 2012 11:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jefrey A. Brother wrote:
At least you could complain to the TD at the end of the round to hear their ruling. If I was TDing I'd give a courtesy warning to the jerks who called it and remove the 2 stroke penalty from the grass-rippers card.
I'd stop short of issuing a courtesy violation just for citing the rule. I wouldn't penalize the player for pulling the grass in the absence of any case rulings on ripping grass.
I do think it's a stretch to consider this vandalism. You are right in that the rule as written was intended to penalize vandalism.

I do, however, favour a culture of unconditional respect for the course and the course environment. Sadly (IMHO), this is not part of the rules.
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PostPosted: Mon May 07, 2012 11:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thumber wrote:

On what basis would you give a courtesy warning? Just because you don't like the rule doesn't mean it doesn't exist lol


There is not rule. That's the point.

Quote:
The Spirit of the Game
Disc golf is played, for the most part, without the supervision of a referee or umpire. The game relies on the integrity of the individual to show consideration for other players and to abide by the Rules. All players should conduct themselves in a disciplined manner, demonstrating courtesy and sportsmanship at all times, irrespective of how competitive they may be. This is the spirit of the game of disc golf.



First strike.

Quote:
3.1 General
A. All PDGA members should refrain from any conduct which is detrimental to the game of disc golf and to the PDGA, both on and off of the course.
...


Second strike.

Quote:
3.3 Player Misconduct
A. The PDGA adopts a strict policy of appropriate behavior and comments to the media. Any conduct deemed to be unprofessional is subject to disqualification by the Tournament Director, and may also be subject to further disciplinary actions from the PDGA.


Completely unprofessional conduct, third strike

Quote:

B. Players are expected to behave in a professional and sportsmanlike manner while participating in a PDGA sanctioned event. Actions that are in violation of this conduct include but are not limited to:

...

(5) Cheating: a willful attempt to circumvent the rules of play


Fourth strike.
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Thumber
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PostPosted: Mon May 07, 2012 11:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I was just playing with you BBP.

i would never call this.
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burjwahzeh
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PostPosted: Mon May 07, 2012 11:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jefrey A. Brother wrote:

There is not rule. That's the point.
...

I think it's a little bit more subtle than that. There is a rule that prevents you from damaging the course. It's not clear from the rules if ripping out grass is damaging the course. The case has not been addressed by the rules committee (from what I understand).

That makes it grey, even though it may seem like a black and white issue.

It's my feeling that your assessment about cleats being more damaging than pinching the grass is fair. For the record, in any of the tournaments that I've TD where I was in the role of a PDGA rules official, if someone had tried to penalize another player for testing the wind in this fashion, I would not have applied the penalty. I would only apply a courtesy violation if they tried to press the issue in an argumentative fashion.
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Jefrey A. Brother
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PostPosted: Mon May 07, 2012 12:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

burjwahzeh wrote:
Jefrey A. Brother wrote:

There is not [a] rule. That's the point.
...

I think it's a little bit more subtle than that. There is a rule that prevents you from damaging the course. It's not clear from the rules if ripping out grass is damaging the course.


Rip out grass from your front lawn and see the destruction caused. What? No destruction? No damage? I don't need the rules commitee to use common sense when it comes to the rules.

I just asked some of my grade 6 students their opinion. I got sarcastic eye roll
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