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andros
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 16, 2011 12:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's not an island hole nor will it be one for the CC, we're talking about drop zones.

Way to derail....
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Holly D
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 16, 2011 1:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

andros wrote:
It's not an island hole nor will it be one for the CC, we're talking about drop zones.

Way to derail....



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andros
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 16, 2011 1:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rolly wrote:

Honestly, the guy I sit beside at work played his 1st round a few weeks ago, not a frisbee guy...
He met Shane and Holly out there in his 1st round.
Well from the longs on his 13th ever(on 13) T-off he hit the basket(for a 2). Shorts is not that hard of a shot to hit grass on the other side of the road for anyone in Am2 and up, if a complete newb is capable of parking it with some luck from longs.


Said the guy talking about not enough sample size for a DZ study. sarcastic eye roll

One guy, one throw.

Sure he made it, but would everyone make it? No.
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andros
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 16, 2011 1:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Holly D wrote:



Sorry don't get your cat reference, actually I don't get most of those cat meme pictures.
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 16, 2011 1:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The cat is unimportant.
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andros
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 16, 2011 1:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I got it now;

http://knowyourmeme.com/memes/this-is-why-we-cant-have-nice-things

No idea it referred to a derail.
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Rolly
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 16, 2011 1:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

andros wrote:
It's not an island hole nor will it be one for the CC, we're talking about drop zones.

Way to derail....


Sorry Thread master, but I was keeping with the theme of the drop zone, just adding another idea for thought, sorry Ill keep it to myself next time. smile
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Rolly
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 16, 2011 1:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

andros wrote:
Rolly wrote:

Honestly, the guy I sit beside at work played his 1st round a few weeks ago, not a frisbee guy...
He met Shane and Holly out there in his 1st round.
Well from the longs on his 13th ever(on 13) T-off he hit the basket(for a 2). Shorts is not that hard of a shot to hit grass on the other side of the road for anyone in Am2 and up, if a complete newb is capable of parking it with some luck from longs.


Said the guy talking about not enough sample size for a DZ study. sarcastic eye roll

One guy, one throw.

Sure he made it, but would everyone make it? No.


The point was Andros that If a new player can hit the green from the longs who is brand new (yes lucky as hell), a mildly experienced player should be able to hit IB from the shorts if it were an island. You said “what about the people that cant make that shot” my point is there is not many of them. Its not that hard.
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andros
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 16, 2011 1:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I see your point and don't get me wrong I love Island green dg holes but it's got to be done right. This hole is not equipped to be an island hole it's got water on one side, a road on the other and trees surrounding it, not an ideal place for an island. If it was surrounded by water (ie a true island green) it would be a great hole but alas it's not so we have to work with what we've got.
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deuce
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 16, 2011 1:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

burjwahzeh wrote:
deuce wrote:
You are penalized. You take a stroke for getting your disc back in bounds. Should you be penalized again if you don't pull off a spectacular shot? Two strokes for an OB seems rather harsh to me.

I think you have to put THIS hole into context: Where the creek serves as a backstop for your drive, your drop zone shot has to have consequences, too. Using the creek to get a 3 should not be a strategy to completing this hole.
The whole idea here is to keep YOU out of the water. That only happens when there's no motivation to go in it, or better put, when there's a motivation to stay out of it.
The risk of going OB a second time shouldn't be such a big deal if you didn't feel it was such a big deal to go OB in the first place. On THIS hole, the drop zone needs to be persuasive from the teepad without being acute in its tendancy to cause double jeopardy on your scorecard. The risk might be there, but failure shouldn't be automatic; uncontrolled aggression from the drop zone should be the only reason for another penalty; putting it in should be challenging; seriously challenging.

Those that filled in their card exclaiming that their favorite drop zone was the only one they sunk are missing the point of what a drop zone is supposed to be on THIS hole, or any hole, for that matter. A drop zone isn't supposed to be a sure shot. You're thinking about how you feel after the shot, not about how you feel before you make it, which is the point of this entire exercise.


I completely understand the desire to curb using the creek as a way to get a 3. However, I don't understand the desire to hand out a 4 80% or 90% of the time.

I don't believe (based on comments posted here) that players from this Tuesday declared that their favourite drop zone was the only one they sunk.

Perhaps the best way to approach this problem would be to define some design goals, and then possible DZs can be determined more easily based on those goals. For example:

What is the target 'circle 3' conversion rate of an open player?
What is the desired amount of risk for going back into the same hazard?

...
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Thumber
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 16, 2011 1:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The solution isn't to make it an island. The point of the discussion is where should the DZ be. Considering you didn't even see the DZ choices, Rolly, your criticisms become a little flimsy.

I treated each try as if it would count in a round. I think most others did as well. People were trying to hit the basket

Now back to where it should be.

The general sense I get from this discussion is it should be makeable but not easy.

The DZ across the creek had very little risk and I would describe it as easy

The DZ 1 is very hard and not many people will get it. It is a great shot to learn. I think DZ1 could be the one if we were to do some trimming on the branches on the right. You would the have the choice between an anny step out or an elevator hyzer. Both have risk

DZ 2 is nice with some risk (hit the tree and you are likely in the drink). It is a straight putt that everyone should be able to hit when they are on.

DZ3 is the best representation of the hole itself. You are back near the road, 30 feet out and a couple up. You are putting directly at the creek. It is a tough putt.

Personally I don't care where it goes as i am never going in the creek again lol
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burjwahzeh
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 16, 2011 2:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

deuce wrote:
...I completely understand the desire to curb using the creek as a way to get a 3. However, I don't understand the desire to hand out a 4 80% or 90% of the time....

Just remember that getting a 4 80% of the time means you got a 3 once out of every five times you play it.

Many people can't hit a 25' putt on flat grass with no OB or branches one time in five. 80-90% from a drop zone seems downright generous, IMO.

Remember, you used OB to backstop your drive. Should a 3 even be allowed for this kind of technical opportunism? My feelings are that it should be rare. You lay-up and get a three, fine. You go OB and get a three? Unless that putt was absolutely inspiring, I say BOOOOOO!!!!
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burjwahzeh
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 16, 2011 2:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm puzzled: why does everyone feel that they have to be able to make the drop zone shot?

Really, the drop zone shot should take away the danger, and leave behind a modest challenge.

Why should a three be an entitlement?

Why are Ottawa golfers so bent on keeping their courses so kindergarten, that many would rather just stand in the creek and pretend it isn't there?

How bad should the golfer be that "deserves" a three?

Why is a four on that hole such a bad score that it should be banished by offering up some sort of kiddie-friendly drop zone?

I'll admit: I haven't even seen the proposed drop zones, but a "can-it" success rate more than 20% is a failure IMO.

The message: Stop thinking of the creek as this ignorable inconvenience and see it as a hazard that will cost you strokes. Then respect a drop zone that does just that.

I'm just sick and tired of a "right to a low score" mentality. The decisions you make and the skills you display are what should lead to a low score, not some communist "everyone needs to be able to make it" drop zone picked to be friendly to people that throw into a defined hazard.

Argh.
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deuce
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 16, 2011 2:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

burjwahzeh wrote:

Remember, you used OB to backstop your drive. Should a 3 even be allowed for this kind of technical opportunism? My feelings are that it should be rare. You lay-up and get a three, fine. You go OB and get a three? Unless that putt was absolutely inspiring, I say BOOOOOO!!!!


You are assuming that the OB is deliberately being used. This isn't always the case. I've seen many seemingly beautiful approaches, skip and/or flip up on edge and roll into the creek. The line between a great drive and a shot in the creek is very fine.

burjwahzeh wrote:

I'll admit: I haven't even seen the proposed drop zones, but a "can-it" success rate more than 20% is a failure IMO.


This is what I was looking for. No more than a 20% 'circle 3' conversion rate.

My feeling is that it should be closer to 50/50. And, I'm not talking about "...Many people can't hit a 25' putt on flat grass with no OB or branches one time in five...". I'm talking about open players.
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deuce
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 16, 2011 2:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I should have said this long ago. Great job DC on gathering this data to aid your decision and spur off this discussion! smile
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Rolly
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 16, 2011 6:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thumber wrote:
The solution isn't to make it an island. The point of the discussion is where should the DZ be. Considering you didn't even see the DZ choices, Rolly, your criticisms become a little flimsy.


Which drop zone did I criticize Shane? I have not even referred to one specifically. sarcastic eye roll All I did was make the point that the stats cant be taken too seriously in the circumstances that were given for the experiment. You did not need to be there to understand that. I know the solution is not make it an island, what I did was come up with a new idea that also had the topic of the DZ as a foundation to that idea also. Sorry for thinking outside the box…
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andros
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 16, 2011 6:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rolly wrote:
Sorry for thinking outside the box…


It's ok Rolly, we forgive you. big grin
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Rolly
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 16, 2011 7:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Statistically the hole is boring and it needs more then an over analyzed DZ.

Last CC it produced par 65% of the time, (most pars on the course)
Bogies 17% of the time
and a bird 10% of the time.
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Holly D
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 16, 2011 7:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Would someone be so kind as to send me a map of the DZs? I won't be able to make it out to have an actual look, and I'd at least like to know what all the fuss is about.
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Rolly
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 16, 2011 7:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Id love to see them too, or a description, I have been scattered all over that hole enough over the past years I could imagine most spots in my head and get the theme.

The one I saw at the goat was interesting, maybee the shortest DZ I'll see, nice tough shot, but lets get that creek in play again big grin
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