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Jefrey A. Brother
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 15, 2011 10:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I made some edits to fix doctor handwriting.
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Jefrey A. Brother
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 15, 2011 10:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'll repost the data on this page too:

DZ 1
4 players made it
3 players hit it
17 players missed it
0 players went in the drink

Average: 2.5

Comments:
"Too crowded" (Missed throw, hit or made all the others)
"DZ 1 Sucks!" (Missed throw, hit or made all the others)
"4 Branches removed and this is gold! No Fair lane at the moment"
"dz1 would need a little clearing, imho."

DZ 2
5 players made it
3 players hit it
15 missed it
1 player went for a swim

Average: 2.5

Comments:
"Really like" (Hit metal)
"DZ2 is great" (Hit metal)
"Tree frames shot"
"I love dz 2. it makes you work."

DZ 3
8 players made it
7 players hit it
7 players missed it
2 got wet

Average: 2.1

Comments:
"I like DZ 3" (Hit metal; missed all the others)
"dz3 too risky, and boring."

DZ 4
3 players made it
9 players hit it
12 missed it
0 saw creek action

Average: 2.4

Comments:
"Luv 4" (Hit metal)
"Most memorable. No risk. Fun" (Hit metal)
"DZ4 is fun; to easy though?" (Made putt; missed 1, hit 2, made 3&4)
"I like 4 the best xox" (Missed)
"DZ4 - No risk. Boring." (Made putt)
"Creekside" (Missed all)
"dz 4 also easy, maybe move it back 15 feet or so?"
"my favourites in order were 2 and 4. If 4 could be moved further back, it would be my favourite"
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deuce
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 15, 2011 12:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jefrey A. Brother wrote:
DZ1 - 4/23 got their circle 3. 17% (83% circle 4)
DZ2 - 5/23 got their circle 3. 22% (74% circle 4 and 1 player is fighting for a double circle something)
DZ3 - 8/23 got their circle 3. 35% (57% circle 4 and 2 players fighting doubles)
DZ4 - 3/23 got their circle 3. 13% (87% circle 4)


I'm very surprised that DZ4 played out harder than DZ1. Before seeing the results, I would have guessed that DZ4 would have seen the highest 'circle 3' conversion rate. Interesting.

With more time to reflect on the options, I would have to pick DZ4 as my favorite. It's a cool shot. Ending up back in the creek should be very rare. It doesn't favour a rightie or a leftie. It also somewhat makes sense to be shooting from the other side of the creek if you went into it.
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C-Kyle
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 15, 2011 2:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I agree with Deuce. DZ4 is the most fair shot for all skill levels. The better golfers should be able to make their circles. I am a strong believer that the DZ should remove the hazard almost completely from the next shot. An example from "ball" golf is Hole 17 at TPC Sawgrass(best hole in all of golf), if the ititial tee shot goes in the drink the player has a drop zone from about half the distance on an easier angle to the green which makes the shot considersably easier and takes the water out of play a lot.
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lissyssil
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 15, 2011 2:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The way I read the stats, I'd say that DZ4 showed as easier, as 12people had a legitimate run at their circle 3, whereas only 7 did for DZ1.
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deuce
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 15, 2011 2:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

lissyssil wrote:
The way I read the stats, I'd say that DZ4 showed as easier, as 12people had a legitimate run at their circle 3, whereas only 7 did for DZ1.


Good point. I was just looking at 'circle 3' conversion rates.
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Jefrey A. Brother
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 15, 2011 2:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Good discussion boys.
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deuce
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 15, 2011 3:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

lissyssil wrote:
The way I read the stats, I'd say that DZ4 showed as easier, as 12people had a legitimate run at their circle 3, whereas only 7 did for DZ1.


Going by the "legitimate run" stats...

DZ1 - 29%
DZ2 - 33%
DZ3 - 63%
DZ4 - 50%

I'd say that the additional circles on DZ2, and DZ3 are significant cons for them to serve as the permanent DZ. Cyle's TPC Sawgrass example is something I was going to quote earlier and it serves as a good example of a DZ essentially taking the hazard out of play. This is the case for nearly all DZs in ball golf, and is done for good reason.
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Rolly
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 15, 2011 6:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Its hard to take the drop zone stats seriously without the strokes (risk rewards) counting for something. Its like playing poker online for free where you can reset your chip count to what you started with at the start of the game.

"2 of spades and a an 7 of hearts before the flop, Im going on in."

I was ot there, but I vote for the most difficult one. A DZ should reward a circle 3 less then 5% of the time, and make them work for the circle 4
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deuce
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 16, 2011 7:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rolly wrote:
Its hard to take the drop zone stats seriously without the strokes (risk rewards) counting for something. Its like playing poker online for free where you can reset your chip count to what you started with at the start of the game.

"2 of spades and a an 7 of hearts before the flop, Im going on in."


I'm guessing that's why there were prizes. I find it hard to believe that people wouldn't be trying to make those putts. You aren't going to be able to replicate big pressure putts, but I still think the data is useful.

Rolly wrote:

I was ot there, but I vote for the most difficult one. A DZ should reward a circle 3 less then 5% of the time, and make them work for the circle 4


So you miss the basket by 10 feet, and you walk away with a circle 4 95+% of the time? That seems pretty harsh to me.
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Rolly
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 16, 2011 7:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

deuce wrote:
Rolly wrote:
Its hard to take the drop zone stats seriously without the strokes (risk rewards) counting for something. Its like playing poker online for free where you can reset your chip count to what you started with at the start of the game.

"2 of spades and a an 7 of hearts before the flop, Im going on in."


I'm guessing that's why there were prizes. I find it hard to believe that people wouldn't be trying to make those putts. You aren't going to be able to replicate big pressure putts, but I still think the data is useful.

Rolly wrote:

I was ot there, but I vote for the most difficult one. A DZ should reward a circle 3 less then 5% of the time, and make them work for the circle 4


So you miss the basket by 10 feet, and you walk away with a circle 4 95+% of the time? That seems pretty harsh to me.


The Prizes idea is cool, but the simulation is still flawed because if I participated and went in the drink 4x, Im not losing anything (ground in a competitive round), all I can do is gain a prize if I sink it. Of course Im going for it in the sim. In a round that counts, from each drop zone people would make different choices based on the situation, being much less aggressive with the prospect of a circle 6 beside there name.



Its not that you missed by 10 feet, its that you landed OB. You made an error, you should be penalised. If you think the penalty should not be as harsh if you missed by just 10 ft, then you should look to get the basket moved from 3 feet away from OB.

The fact is, if you go OB, you should be penalised, and if you want to avoid the penalty that you made because you made a bad stroke, then it should be a spectacular shot that saves that extra shot.


Last edited by Rolly on Thu Jun 16, 2011 7:56 am; edited 1 time in total
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deuce
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 16, 2011 9:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rolly wrote:

The Prizes idea is cool, but the simulation is still flawed because if I participated and went in the drink 4x, Im not losing anything (ground in a competitive round), all I can do is gain a prize if I sink it. Of course Im going for it in the sim. In a round that counts, from each drop zone people would make different choices based on the situation, being much less aggressive with the prospect of a circle 6 beside there name.


I don't disagree that it's not the same as a competitive round. What would you suggest?

Rolly wrote:

Its not that you missed by 10 feet, its that you landed OB. You made an error, you should be penalised. If you think the penalty should not be as harsh if you missed by just 10 ft, then you should look to get the basket moved from 3 feet away from OB.

The fact is, if you go OB, you should be penalised, and if you want to avoid the penalty that you made because you made a bad stroke, then it should be a spectacular shot that saves that extra shot.


You are penalized. You take a stroke for getting your disc back in bounds. Should you be penalized again if you don't pull off a spectacular shot? Two strokes for an OB seems rather harsh to me.
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 16, 2011 11:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

deuce wrote:
You are penalized. You take a stroke for getting your disc back in bounds. Should you be penalized again if you don't pull off a spectacular shot? Two strokes for an OB seems rather harsh to me.

I think you have to put THIS hole into context: Where the creek serves as a backstop for your drive, your drop zone shot has to have consequences, too. Using the creek to get a 3 should not be a strategy to completing this hole.
The whole idea here is to keep YOU out of the water. That only happens when there's no motivation to go in it, or better put, when there's a motivation to stay out of it.
The risk of going OB a second time shouldn't be such a big deal if you didn't feel it was such a big deal to go OB in the first place. On THIS hole, the drop zone needs to be persuasive from the teepad without being acute in its tendancy to cause double jeopardy on your scorecard. The risk might be there, but failure shouldn't be automatic; uncontrolled aggression from the drop zone should be the only reason for another penalty; putting it in should be challenging; seriously challenging.

Those that filled in their card exclaiming that their favorite drop zone was the only one they sunk are missing the point of what a drop zone is supposed to be on THIS hole, or any hole, for that matter. A drop zone isn't supposed to be a sure shot. You're thinking about how you feel after the shot, not about how you feel before you make it, which is the point of this entire exercise.
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John Pytel
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 16, 2011 11:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rolly wrote:

Its not that you missed by 10 feet, its that you landed OB. You made an error, you should be penalised. If you think the penalty should not be as harsh if you missed by just 10 ft, then you should look to get the basket moved from 3 feet away from OB.

The fact is, if you go OB, you should be penalised, and if you want to avoid the penalty that you made because you made a bad stroke, then it should be a spectacular shot that saves that extra shot.


You are penalized. You take a stroke for getting your disc back in bounds. Should you be penalized again if you don't pull off a spectacular shot? Two strokes for an OB seems rather harsh to me.[/quote]

Interesting...

How would you view the shot with a re-throw from the original lie?

The penalty would be there AND also the same difficult shot. To me a drop zone can't just assign the penalty. It also has to re-simulate the difficulty. In a perfect world "similar diffculty". Look at #16 at the Players Championship course (Island green). The drop zone isn't on the island. The drop zone puts you closer and at an angle that makes a longer landing zone but it's debateable if it's even any easier.

Was there a drop zone on the inbound side of the OB? Something appropriate to a mid shot? Even if you go OB from a shorter distance you end up going to a farther distance. I believe this situation can happen in some white ball drop zones. The situation where you go OB from a location but end up with a longer shot from the drop zone.
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burjwahzeh
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 16, 2011 11:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

John Pytel wrote:

How would you view the shot with a re-throw from the original lie?

The penalty would be there AND also the same difficult shot. To me a drop zone can't just assign the penalty. It also has to re-simulate the difficulty. ...

I think it's awesome, except for one little detail:
It's a long hike back up that hill on #13. It would make for a slow hole.
Mandatory re-throw on 13... it really is the solution to everything except the drive.

Stupid PDGA and their "tournament executive" permission.
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Rolly
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 16, 2011 12:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

deuce wrote:
Rolly wrote:

The Prizes idea is cool, but the simulation is still flawed because if I participated and went in the drink 4x, Im not losing anything (ground in a competitive round), all I can do is gain a prize if I sink it. Of course Im going for it in the sim. In a round that counts, from each drop zone people would make different choices based on the situation, being much less aggressive with the prospect of a circle 6 beside there name.


I don't disagree that it's not the same as a competitive round. What would you suggest?

Rolly wrote:

Its not that you missed by 10 feet, its that you landed OB. You made an error, you should be penalised. If you think the penalty should not be as harsh if you missed by just 10 ft, then you should look to get the basket moved from 3 feet away from OB.

The fact is, if you go OB, you should be penalised, and if you want to avoid the penalty that you made because you made a bad stroke, then it should be a spectacular shot that saves that extra shot.


You are penalized. You take a stroke for getting your disc back in bounds. Should you be penalized again if you don't pull off a spectacular shot? Two strokes for an OB seems rather harsh to me.


The only way to collect the stats is to make the penalty of going in the water a negative result for an individual that they will not be able to change or ignore in future and would result in a negative outcome in the event of achieving a goal. So you could
a) run a competitive round, have 1 new experimental drop zone/round, collect the stats, but you would be relying on people going out of bounds which would not result in enough samples to collect a good amount of stats. Iím guessing less then 25% of people go out of bounds on 13; with 20 people T-ing off only gives +/- 5 samples . Its difficult and would take a long time to collect proper stats
b) Run the experiment as was on Tue, but tell people that if they land in the drink, then they will never get the disc back. Harsh, but the river will receive a more realistic degree of respect then if I am just running the basket with no negative effects.
What happened on the experiment on Tue was that there was no loss associated with going in the drink from the 4 DZ's. No strokes were added to the Tue league nightly score for example, all that was lost was the opportunity to gain something (I heard there were prizes). Loosing something you have(a score,) and loosing the opportunity to get something you donít have (Free stuff) will produce much different approaches to how the DZ is played by an individual.
The stats that were collected on Tue tell us the % that people are capable of making the shot (at a specific distance and angle) in an environment where no loss is associated with risk. Put risk (loss) in that equation and the stats are much different.

Yes you are penalized for moving from OB to IB @ the DZ, I got that. What I am proposing is that the DZ should be a situation where, you can either
a) Go for it, which is a high risk shot that if you went for it aggressively and missed could easily result in a 2nd circle.
but
b) its a shot where if you played it safe, and smart an easy upshot for a circle 4 would happen 80-90% of the time. A circle 5 or 6 would happen if a major error in judgment happened in the B case.


Put it in a spot where its both a gutsy shot to go for, and one hell of a nice shot to make, not where itís a simple 30ft put with some trouble behind it that I can go for it, hit the basket and Ill be fine kind of deal (like where its been for the past while just on the opposite side of the road from the T pad, CC last year for example).
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Rolly
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 16, 2011 12:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The best idea I have heard is make It an island between the road and the river, and have the shorts as the DZ.
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andros
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 16, 2011 12:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rolly wrote:
The best idea I have heard is make It an island between the road and the river, and have the shorts as the DZ.


And as a result punish all the players that can't make it there from either tee.

That's the not the answer.
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peachgrinder
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 16, 2011 12:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

andros wrote:
Rolly wrote:
The best idea I have heard is make It an island between the road and the river, and have the shorts as the DZ.


And as a result punish all the players that can't make it there from either tee.

That's the not the answer.


I agree. A crazy windy day in a tournament can knock down plenty of discs (from either tee) before the road. Heck, my backhand some times just clears.
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Rolly
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 16, 2011 12:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

andros wrote:
Rolly wrote:
The best idea I have heard is make It an island between the road and the river, and have the shorts as the DZ.


And as a result punish all the players that can't make it there from either tee.

That's the not the answer.


Ok fine, if they cant hit a 140ft shot that plays like a 90ft shot and have it land IB with plenty of space to do so is not the answer then make a drop zone, but make it an Island!!!

I could throw every disc in my bag from the shorts and have it land IB, if it where an Island, its not that difficult of a shot. Confused

Honestly, the guy I sit beside at work played his 1st round a few weeks ago, not a frisbee guy...
He met Shane and Holly out there in his 1st round.
Well from the longs on his 13th ever(on 13) T-off he hit the basket(for a 2). Shorts is not that hard of a shot to hit grass on the other side of the road for anyone in Am2 and up, if a complete newb is capable of parking it with some luck from longs.


Last edited by Rolly on Thu Jun 16, 2011 12:37 pm; edited 5 times in total
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