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Would you prefer a best 5 set up for the BS series OR leave it as it, total of all?
Best 5 events
70%
 70%  [ 7 ]
Total of all events
30%
 30%  [ 3 ]
Total Votes : 10

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Jefrey A. Brother
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 15, 2011 1:38 pm    Post subject: Best 5 events for Bourgie Saucer? Reply with quote

Would you prefer a best 5 set up for the BS series OR leave it as it, total of all?

(Poll ends March 1st)

Feel free to comment. I will review comments and make a decision based on comments and poll.


Last edited by Jefrey A. Brother on Tue Mar 01, 2011 9:32 am; edited 1 time in total
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lissyssil
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 15, 2011 2:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

In my opinion, Bourgie Saucer is best suited as a "Sum of all Events" series. My reasoning:

As a sum of all events series, not only does Bourgie Saucer honour the player who "kept it together" throughout the season, but also honours players who show true dedication to ODGC events. Play every event, and you're in the race. Don't play every event, and you're definitely handicapping yourself.

The President's Cup race is excellent at rewarding the best disc golfer in the club, and the BS is excellent at rewarding consistency and dedication. In order to be in the running in the BS race, a player will have to continually play well with respect to their ability, and therefore, their ability will continue to rise, while their handicap continues to fall. At the same time, he or she will have to show dedication throughout the season in an effort to win.

The only thing I think might be broken with the BS race is that someone can come in, like last year, play three events, and win the title. Perhaps the rules should state that a player must play at least X events in order to qualify for the BS race?
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burjwahzeh
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 15, 2011 2:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Best of n.

After all, there is only so much BS a person can take.
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John Pytel
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 15, 2011 2:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Does either have a mechanism for a "current" handicap to factor in? There's a flaw when somebody can eclipse the field by 20 points, on an adjusted basis, and earn enough points on a Tier 1 event to win the series.

No persons fault other than the handicap was not "current" or should one say "reflective".
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clausr
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 17, 2011 2:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If all player play equal to their handycap (which they should on average) all player will roughly have the same score per event. So then if you add up all the points at the end of the season it will simply be the individual that shows for the most events that is the overwhelming favorite.

I say make it best of 5 that way more players are capable of winning. The player with the best attendance is still the most likely to win, just not overwhelming.
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John Pytel
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 17, 2011 2:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

clausr wrote:
If all player play equal to their handycap (which they should on average) all player will roughly have the same score per event. So then if you add up all the points at the end of the season it will simply be the individual that shows for the most events that is the overwhelming favorite.

I say make it best of 5 that way more players are capable of winning. The player with the best attendance is still the most likely to win, just not overwhelming.


Your "IF" is not what happens in practice. The handicap has the potential or reality to not be current. Nothing against the winner or the series but they won in years that their handicap was not reflective of their level of play. The "lag" so to speak.

Simon won it last year on appearing in 3 events. Ice Bowl, Plaid, and League night final. His ODGC handicap was not current to his level of play. He eclipsed deuce in second at the plaid by 10 strokes and Belyea by 14 at which point the filed was tight and more reflective.

Shooting the lights out and a lowered course difficulty aside the results show the lag or primarily the handicap is not current because of a lack of rounds registered.

To me there has to be a balance between participation and registering a current handicap with the ODGC.

I agree with the best 5. I still see the more important need to have some mechanism to ensure you have registered enough rounds in the current season for this series to consider your ODGC handicap current.

Best 5 is hard to do faiirly with point Tiers. Simon won just on two Tier 1 events alone last year.

Could "Best of 5" and "Minimum of 5" be a solution? Could level tiers help?


Last edited by John Pytel on Thu Feb 17, 2011 3:03 pm; edited 2 times in total
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clausr
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 18, 2011 8:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

John Pytel wrote:

Your "IF" is not what happens in practice. The handicap has the potential or reality to not be current. Nothing against the winner or the series but they won in years that their handicap was not reflective of their level of play. The "lag" so to speak.



Agreed, a player who improves a lot over the course of a season will score more BS points. Nothing wrong with that.
Some players get worse.

I don't think it changes anything in terms of arguing for the best of n.
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Ken Darcovich
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 18, 2011 8:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

clausr wrote:

a player who improves a lot over the course of a season will score more BS points


And that, in a nutshell, is what the BS table is all about.
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John Pytel
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 18, 2011 11:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ken Darcovich wrote:
clausr wrote:

a player who improves a lot over the course of a season will score more BS points


And that, in a nutshell, is what the BS table is all about.


I couldn't agree more.

I'm just pointing out that

"a player who improves a lot over the course of a season, without registering rounds with the ODGC to reflect a improving handicap (ie current), will score too many BS points"

1) Winning it on 2 tier one events.
2) Eclipsing the filed by 13 strokes
3) Registering only 3 handicap rate rounds in the system for the season

All still appear to be a red flag of a disconnect. The disconnect caused by not enough rounds to have an approriate handicap for in a season long club series.

Nothing to do with the spirit or intent of the series. Simply the measurement system of the series.
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Ken Darcovich
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 18, 2011 11:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Good point John. I didn't pick up that nuance about recorded rounds.

The system definitely favours someone such as the out-of-town visitor
having a breakthrough year, doing most of their improving off our radar.
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John Pytel
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 18, 2011 1:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ken Darcovich wrote:
Good point John. I didn't pick up that nuance about recorded rounds.

The system definitely favours someone such as the out-of-town visitor
having a breakthrough year, doing most of their improving off our radar.


Thanks Ken. I would say what you describe is what happened last year but there's more to it if you choose to look deeper.

I observe scratch and slop being more accurate measurements for determining Tier point awards.

Look at an event like the Plaid. The nature of the event has the course difficulty reduced for reasons we all know. That reduction of difficulty is the same discussion we have when low handicapper's get killed at Par 54 /lower difficulty events (Think a TOSS at Kanata) versus how they excel at Par 65+/high difficulty ( think TOSS Fortune Longs or Ettyville Longs/Mids).

To me, the measure of how many points to award (tiers) is best as a combination of difficulty and attendance. That probably over complicates things but a low handicapper is going to have to put in the round of his life time to win the BS points at the Plaid.

Good thing is that low handicapper will have then won the jacket and probably not care about BS points.

It would be interesting or a huge bonus to overlay scratch and slope better. I’m sure Bourgie would have thoughts.

At the end of the day this is a good news story series and recognizes improvements in ones game in competitive play situations. The attention or drama of the series could be increased for all, in my opinion ,with a mechanism for trying to ensure winners have put in enough rounds as well as adjusting for the difficulty of the event to the benefit of low handicappers.

2 years ago Andros killed the CC and Plaid for 2000 points. Second in the series had 2475 points.

Both previous winners and runners up were in the process of really lowering their handicaps but winning on 2 events, or what I just tried to explain above is a system that over rewards because improving AM1’s outscore the crap out of everyone on lower difficulty scoring situations.

I’ll leave it at that and just say the minimum I’d advocate for is a minimum number of rated rounds so the accuracy of the handicap is more “fair”.
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burjwahzeh
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 18, 2011 2:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thinking about this without actually doing the math...

I'm going to assume that nobody is going to win without playing the full number of rounds. Somebody will always have a better record than the guy that doesn't accumulate 100% of the possible points.

Let's say they'll need to get 5 tournaments in.

Most out of town players will have less than 20 rounds on record (It would take attending 10 one-day tournaments to get that).

A player will "get away" with an easy BS win when they improve, but that win will see at least 2 low HC rounds added to their record. With an incomplete record, that should be enough to drop their handicap several points in a single tournament, so the repeat is going to be more difficult.

If they repeat and pull out a second BS win, that's a minimum of 4 low round records, which will almost certainly balance out an incomplete record, and would have a significant effect even on a full record.

I have trouble seeing how you could sweep a season on this. One win takes at least two rounds, so your record changes much more quickly than it would during the weekly league.

Hey, even Atos, who had a truly stratospheric handicap, and who improved by a stroke each time he played (an absolutely incredible rate, I'll add), was limited to cashing at TOSS on only two or was it three occasions.

I know I'm comparing apples and oranges with that, but I just don't think the concern is completely founded, especially where if you need to play 5 tournaments, and you make one big off season improvement, you will actually replace YOUR ENTIRE HANDICAP when the 10 rounds of golf are entered into the system.


Heck, being from "out of town" could be construed as a disadvantage, in that this improvement won't be offset by the occasional bad round on a Tuesday.
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John Pytel
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 18, 2011 2:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mark's handicap kept current and therefore accurate for BS standings in TOSS as the season progressed. Week after week and event after event. Simon's obviously didn't with a gap of IceBowl to Plaid with no rounds. Mark won TOSS BS though. He just didn't participate in the "easier" Tier one events. His placing at LNF reflect the difficulty and how high handicapers can't score big points. I also think the CC and Plaid are just difficult enough to keep AM2's in check but not AM1's.

TOSS is a bit different in the context or rewarding season long participation as well for BS.

Are you saying Best of 5 or Minimum of 5? Best of doesn't matter when your past 2 year winners won it on winning 2 Tier 1 events.

It'd be interesting to observe scratch and slope to the BS results in ranges of handicap's.

While the winners point to it. I think there's some statistical evidence that the AM1 getting serious about his game has an advantage over high and low handicapers. The high handicaper is lost because the scoring difficulty lisn't there at all the Tier 1 events to keep them in "check". What the exact handicap start and end point over the season needs to be? I don't know. I just find it interesting.
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burjwahzeh
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 18, 2011 2:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

John Pytel wrote:

Are you saying Best of 5 or Minimum of 5? Best of doesn't matter when your past 2 year winners won it on winning 2 Tier 1 events.

I think I may have caused great confusion with my original post which now looks like a grievous error.
"Count the best n tournaments" is what I meant to have written, and right about now, if n=5, everything should work out just fine.
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John Pytel
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 18, 2011 3:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

"Best of" limits over rewarding participation. Good thing.

"Minimum of" attempts to keep a handicap current. A better thing.
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lissyssil
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 18, 2011 3:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I like the idea of "Best of N, with a minimum of Y", where Y > the number of Tier 1 events.

My suggestion would be that Y be a number >= half of the BS qualifying events.

Actually, I'd still like it to be "All of the events, with a minimum of Y".
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Jefrey A. Brother
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 01, 2011 9:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for your thoughts.

The 2011 Bourgie Saucer Race will have the following rule change.

From the Rules for the 2011 Presidents Cup Series:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
9. Running along with the PC Series is the Bourgie Saucer Race where, if applicable, adjusted scores, or other alternative methods will be used to rank player's finishes. A player's top 5 events will be used to contribute to their BS Point Total for the end of the year. The top 5 events can be any combination of tier 1 or tier 2 events. A player must play (and finish) in at least 5 BS events to have their point totals count for the championship.

Events that qualify for the 2011 Bourgie Saucer are: Ice Bowl, Mud Slide at the Cove, King of the Oonie, The GOAT, Capital Classic, MOD, Falling Colours, Plaid, TOSS Most Improved, LNF.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Again, thank you for your thoughts and civil discussion on the matter. Wink
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Jefrey A. Brother
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 01, 2011 9:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

This rule change fits well with the Presidents Cup Mission Statement:

The Presidents Cup recognizes the year's best club player.

Ottawa Disc Golf Club members have established a tradition of participation and competitive excellence. The Presidents Cup recognizes the accomplishments of the person who best upholds that tradition. Series points are awarded at ODGC tournaments and league nights. The competitor with the most points - calculated from their top five finishes - wins.
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