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Thumber
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 30, 2010 2:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

lissyssil wrote:
There's about fourteen inches of leeway in 30cm.


There's a weiner measuring joke in this somewhere
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lissyssil
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 30, 2010 2:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thumber wrote:
lissyssil wrote:
There's about fourteen inches of leeway in 30cm.


There's a weiner measuring joke in this somewhere

Six baby!
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lissyssil
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 30, 2010 2:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thumber wrote:
30cm is 12 inches....look at your ruler

Teacher? I ate my ruler. </ralph>

Boy, I am not smart today.
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Steve Rydell
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 30, 2010 2:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think the planting issue has really started to become a fundamental issue aggravated by course design and player expectation.

Holes are becoming longer and now 'par 4' and 'par 5' are becoming the norm. Courses are designed so that multiple throws are required to reach the green. Players then decide to try reach the green using their biggest discs and most powerful throws. Players then miss their marks and are not punished for doing so. This then leads to designers making longer holes as it is now expected of you to throw as hard as you can even from the fairway. Disc golf has fallen head over heels in love with the big arm and mega throw and now the rules don't fit how people want to play.

To me this is akin to reteeing your ball in the fairway and using you driver. If that's what the players want so be it.

I do practice hitting my mark and I like to think I do a good job on average. I'm guilty of being lax if I'm in the middle of the fairway but most other times I am aware of my mark and try my best to hit it even if it means not having an optimal throw.
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Thumber
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 30, 2010 3:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I absolutely agree than longer courses has aggravated the issue. I suppose it ca be dealt with either through modifying the rules or cracking down on players hard.
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John Pytel
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 30, 2010 3:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Steve Rydell wrote:
I think the planting issue has really started to become a fundamental issue aggravated by course design and player expectation.

Holes are becoming longer and now 'par 4' and 'par 5' are becoming the norm. Courses are designed so that multiple throws are required to reach the green. Players then decide to try reach the green using their biggest discs and most powerful throws. Players then miss their marks and are not punished for doing so. This then leads to designers making longer holes as it is now expected of you to throw as hard as you can even from the fairway. Disc golf has fallen head over heels in love with the big arm and mega throw and now the rules don't fit how people want to play.

To me this is akin to reteeing your ball in the fairway and using you driver. If that's what the players want so be it.

I do practice hitting my mark and I like to think I do a good job on average. I'm guilty of being lax if I'm in the middle of the fairway but most other times I am aware of my mark and try my best to hit it even if it means not having an optimal throw.


I agree with Ben's analysis about why the rule has become important.

I don't see the run up in the fairway as bad as "reteeing" the ball in the fairway. There's a mark to hit. There's no mark to hit in a tee box but I get the point.

If I were to break it down.

I can see the importance of a limited mark in a stationary stance so that people won't move to accomodate obstructions.

In a run up situation I don't see the requirement as much.

How would you ever rule or police the difference? It's impossible so it'll be one mark fits all I suppose.
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Jefrey A. Brother
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 30, 2010 3:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Chuck Shick wrote:
How much lateral leeway are people allowed?


None, according to the rules. This is pretty stingy for sure.

Quote:
When the disc is released, a player must:
(1) Have at least one supporting point that is in contact with the playing surface on the line of play and within 30 centimeters directly behind the marker disc


Quote:
Line of Play: The imaginary line on the playing surface extending from the center of the target through the center of the marker disc and beyond. This line has no thickness; therefore one support point must be directly behind the center of the marker.


A 30 cm diameter circle, or 30x30 cm box would be better for sure. As it reads now you would need a protractor and a ruler to figure out the Line of Play.

I have no qualms with players planting their foot behind the marker disc and being off the Line of Play (imaginary?!? WTF.) by 2 or 3 inches. Such is life. But there have been some liberties this year at TOSS and other events for sure.

It's hard to do. So is playing piano. How do you get better? Practice. Simple. And if it's too hard, then don't run up. Disco and Donald can get good D from a standing drive. Use IL to practice for the summer season.
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Jefrey A. Brother
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 30, 2010 4:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jefrey A. Brother wrote:
A 30 cm diameter circle, or 30x30 cm box would be better for sure. As it reads now you would need a protractor and a ruler to figure out the Line of Play.



Or at least the width of the marker disc. That would give Chuck even more substance behind his "don't mark, don't bend" philosophy.
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Last edited by Jefrey A. Brother on Tue Nov 30, 2010 5:07 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Thumber
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 30, 2010 4:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jefrey A. Brother wrote:
Jefrey A. Brother wrote:
A 30 cm diameter circle, or 30x30 cm box would be better for sure. As it reads now you would need a protractor and a ruler to figure out the Line of Play.



Or at least the width of the marker disc. That would Chuck even more substance behind his "don't mark, don't bend" philosophy.


agreed.....30 cm box.....people will still foot fault though
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clausr
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 30, 2010 4:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

lissyssil wrote:

If it's inconsequential at 2 feet behind, why not give them three? Or four, or ten? It's the rules, man.


1st - Were talking about a potential change of rules specifically designed so less players inadvertently break rules.
2nd - the line is narrow, as far as the rules go it doesn't matter if you miss by a cm or 10ft. You missed. As far as I'm concerned, if there is a rule that is broken in statistically significant numbers, its a bad rule.

3rd - IMHO a throw in an wide open fairway is inconsequential, throw from farther away if you want I don't care.
As soon as there is something in front of you and taking it further back allows you to get the disc over or around easier, then it no longer inconsequential. That's my point.

Currently the rule is 30cm line straight back. The PDGA could decide to make it a disc width area, 60cm back. Just a different rule.
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Rolly
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 30, 2010 4:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Chuck Shick wrote:
How much lateral leeway are people allowed?


I have asked this many times in different places and have no answer still.
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lissyssil
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 30, 2010 4:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

clausr wrote:
1st - Were talking about a potential change of rules specifically designed so less players inadvertently break rules.

The onus here should be on the player to learn how to throw without breaking the rules. Not on the rules to change to facilitate the player that can't hit a foot long mark, with about +/- 4 inches of leeway left to right (given my estimated average width of the toebox of a shoe).
Quote:
2nd - the line is narrow, as far as the rules go it doesn't matter if you miss by a cm or 10ft. You missed. As far as I'm concerned, if there is a rule that is broken in statistically significant numbers, its a bad rule.

Or, a rule that isn't properly being addressed by players in their discipline.
Quote:
3rd - IMHO a throw in an wide open fairway is inconsequential, throw from farther away if you want I don't care.
As soon as there is something in front of you and taking it further back allows you to get the disc over or around easier, then it no longer inconsequential. That's my point.

This causes a whole new set of issues. Where is the line that delineates the difference between consequential and inconsequential? Example: I throw off 10 long, and my disc lands with the hut on the left side between me and the basket. Can I step back further from my lie to throw if I'm 1 foot away from the hut? 5 feet? 10 feet? Where does it become an unobstructed lie to the basket? Too ambiguous. That's why there is, and should be, one rule for stance prior to throw.
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clausr
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 30, 2010 4:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jefrey A. Brother wrote:
clausr wrote:
I think its difficult to have part of your foot on a 30cm line the moment you release your disc if you have any kind of run up. If I had it out for you BBP I would watch you like a hawk and penalize you (no warning) , cause I think you would miss sometimes even with your practice. That would ruin your day wouldn't it.

Most players very much try to release the disc from behind their mark. Most times its inconsequential if thy release 2ft behind their mark throwing in the forward direction.
However I have called people for being off to the side throwing forward or being more than 1ft behind throwing sideways.


Claus, don't even get me started with you. And I invite your hawk eyes.


HAHA, I'm sure you hit the mark MOST of the time. However you won't catch me watching to close. Its no fun having to police everyone.

As for me, I know I'm no angel. I do try to hit my mark, but admittedly could do so more consistently with practice and determination.
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Ken Darcovich
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 30, 2010 4:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Once I finally "got it", about needing to hit the fairway mark, to conform to rules, and mainly, let me add, I finally appreciated that other players who were carefully observing the rule were sacrificing some amount of shot quality in order to properly hit the mark, I watched Penton a fair amount, he has really integrated the mark-hit into his run up and release very well.

What I hate is bumpy ground for this. I have long legs, they move a lot on my release, and if I have to "reach" to hit the spot when my wind-up can no longer be stopped, I'll either miss the mark, or not throw how I planned.

It is definitely a major part of the fairway drive. There's also the decision to take no run up to ensure hitting the mark in a dicey spot, or to risk the foot foul when you know you really need full power...
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Jefrey A. Brother
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 30, 2010 5:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

clausr wrote:

As for me, I know I'm no angel. I do try to hit my mark, but admittedly could do so more consistently with practice and determination.


Well said.
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Jefrey A. Brother
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 30, 2010 5:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rolly wrote:
Chuck Shick wrote:
How much lateral leeway are people allowed?


I have asked this many times in different places and have no answer still.


I answered it about 4 posts above yours.

Jefrey A. Brother wrote:
Chuck Shick wrote:
How much lateral leeway are people allowed?


None, according to the rules. This is pretty stingy for sure.

Quote:
When the disc is released, a player must:
(1) Have at least one supporting point that is in contact with the playing surface on the line of play and within 30 centimeters directly behind the marker disc


Quote:
Line of Play: The imaginary line on the playing surface extending from the center of the target through the center of the marker disc and beyond. This line has no thickness; therefore one support point must be directly behind the center of the marker.


A 30 cm diameter circle, or 30x30 cm box would be better for sure. As it reads now you would need a protractor and a ruler to figure out the Line of Play.

I have no qualms with players planting their foot behind the marker disc and being off the Line of Play (imaginary?!? WTF.) by 2 or 3 inches. Such is life. But there have been some liberties this year at TOSS and other events for sure.

It's hard to do. So is playing piano. How do you get better? Practice. Simple. And if it's too hard, then don't run up. Disco and Donald can get good D from a standing drive. Use IL to practice for the summer season.

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lissyssil
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 30, 2010 5:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ken Darcovich wrote:
What I hate is bumpy ground for this. I have long legs, they move a lot on my release, and if I have to "reach" to hit the spot when my wind-up can no longer be stopped, I'll either miss the mark, or not throw how I planned.

At what point are you committed to making a throw? I know I can "good stop" and choke off a throw even 50% of the way into my drive, and often do so if I feel something is going wrong. If you're forced to reach, that should happen at the tail end of your backswing, and should afford the time to choke the throw off and set up again, no?
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Jefrey A. Brother
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 30, 2010 5:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ken Darcovich wrote:

What I hate is bumpy ground for this. I have long legs, they move a lot on my release, and if I have to "reach" to hit the spot when my wind-up can no longer be stopped, I'll either miss the mark, or not throw how I planned.



I hear yah, brother! Try bringing in a 30+ foot run-up into the equation.

I started practicing before my first Worlds. I thought for sure they'd be paying attention to my feet during a run-up. Nope.
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Jefrey A. Brother
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 30, 2010 5:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ClausR wrote:
2nd - the line is narrow, as far as the rules go it doesn't matter if you miss by a cm or 10ft. You missed. As far as I'm concerned, if there is a rule that is broken in statistically significant numbers, its a bad rule.


So true. But like Pytel stated earlier, (and maybe not even in this thread) what do you about the non-run-up throws?
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Thumber
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 30, 2010 7:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I absolutley love to watch someone have to crawl under a bush, one leg stuck way out, minimizing movement of the surrounding foliage, and have to get their foot onto the mid-line behind the disc. Its great in those situations.

Where I have an issue is when I am in the middle of the fairway (because I made a good shot) and the ground is rough, dipped, muddy, whatever. I made the correct shot and still I am forced to decide between getting the power I need or standing and delivering shorter.

Say its a Par 4, 650 feet. I drive it out 350 with a wraith, right in the center of the fairway. I've executed exactly what the designer of the hole intended. Next shot I have another 300 to go and need a full power shot to get to the basket. But where I am laying is a bit bumpy, and I'm going to miss my mark shooting there at full power. So, in essence, the course is not maintained to what the designer saw. I could go just back and hit 18-24 inches behind my disc and be fine, but I am forced to either go for it and try to get my bird, or stand and deliver, come up short and get an up and down 4.

The designer intended the risk to be that I could get there with 2 perfect full power throws but the fairway itself isn't sufficient. That's where I think there is a need for flexibility.

I like the precision of the rules as they are currently designed, but like Ben said, courses are getting longer. When the rules were designed there were a larger proportion of courses which were true par 3 courses which could have as many as 10-14 ace run holes. stand and deliver from the fairway is the norm on those type of courses. Full power second shots were rare but are becoming much more common.

I try hard to hit my marks, but I know I miss just like everyone else, especially in casual golf. In tourny's I am more diligent but I guess practice like you want to play.
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