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John Pytel
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 28, 2010 3:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jefrey A. Brother wrote:
John Pytel wrote:

Where does one "sign up" or declare participation in the PC? What's the cost to be involved in it?


If you are a member of the ODGC and you participate in an ODGC event you become a participant. The cost? To the participant? Is the cost of the event you are participating in. The real cost? About 3 hours of my time every time a PC event takes place.

Quote:

More importantly than improving ones game is these series should encourage participation...


For the AM2s this is not going to be a driving factor. I have abandoned the idea of finding a way for AM2 players to be apart of the PC if they don't play the same pads. It, sadly, is not for them while they are at their skill level. Hopefully it will be something that they can strive for and develop their game to be a part of.

Quote:
and membership...


I am under no delusions that the PC Series will encourage people to become a member of the ODGC. I am of the mindset that if you play a course designed, managed, and paid for by the ODGC you would become a member because essentially you are stealing. This is what I think.

The PC series is for the top golfers in the region. If you aren't there yet I have already stated:
BBP wrote:
If the AM2s feel like they're left out then I have always been available for clinics, pointers and goal setting to improve their game so that they become part of the mix.


Jeff, my question about the cost and sign up was directed at Collins comment.
Quote:
I think it's great that we have more and more players that care enough to want to be a part of and compete in the PC.


It's assumptive. You're "auto enrolled" and there's no idication people are beating down the doors with memberships to "compete in the PC".


Last edited by John Pytel on Fri Oct 29, 2010 7:17 am; edited 1 time in total
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John Pytel
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 29, 2010 7:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Some things that I’d comment/note on to the PC and Saucer points awarding and series in general.

Things for your further consideration with no intent on changing the system from recognizing the “best results/golfer” in the series. If anything these are ideas that could get more rounds registering in the point matrix and memberships in the club from further added value. If nothing else we’ve had over 800 reads of these posts which is good exposure.

I do appreciate the patience you have on this BBP. It’s “your” baby and you built it and understand it better than anybody. We’re just on the outside interpreting and questioning trying to understand it. I think it’s natural with no ill intents. Also, you do and did a crap load of work on this. You’re level on interest and engagement to keep doing this is most important. If Geoff doesn’t like it that’s ok with me and if somebody wants to do something different then have at it.

-6 of 12 events are AM2 inclusive as it stands.

-The doubling of points between Tier 1 and Tier 2 seem high. They become “must attend” and/or are over weighting in rewarding.

-Establish the minimum event attendance number and reward that number. Best 5 of 12 is great. IF 5 were to be a set minimum then reward people when they hit that. Reward big, such that the only people registering significantly in the series would have to attend that minimum number of events. Establish the same guidelines for Saucer as well. It would keep handicaps more current. This would be AM2 friendly.

- Give minimum attendance points. Something realistic but that could total to something with great attendance. This would be included over and above your best 5 scores. This would be AM2 friendly.

-Remove the “membership current by the CC” for inclusion. It’s only the 4th event of the series and is preceded by Ice Bowl and Oonie and Goat. Not events or times of the year we see lots of opportunity for our distance members to attend and/or we haven’t been able to convince travellers to join the club at an event. I think if we can get that membership at any point in the year because of this series then that’s a good thing. I think we could look beyond exceptions for just life time members.

-Consider the point in the tiers to not “flatten” out at the bottom and figure out a system to give points to other classes. I’m open to the AM2’s scoring points after the last Open/AM1 player. If the points weren’t flat at that level there could be some ability for AM2’s to register and compete against each other. I don’t see this having any effect on the Open/AM1 points. This would be AM2 friendly as well.


-Could you award the points differently? Of course. Would they ever change the top or winner? Doubtful. If there’s some way to “crunch” these score to get more people engaged and attending the events then I think it’s worth looking at. We got 2 years of results that could be analyzed. Would a system of “self” tier’ing work? Awards points in equal increments from last AM2 up to top score. Say 1 point increments. This would make 15 person events only worth 15 points to the winner. Bigger or well attended events would earn more. I think this would make the race tighter and offer up further abilities for all classes to compete. This would be AM2 friendly and offer meaning placement amongst ones peers. I do recognize the drama that the Plaid and LNF can create with late in the season points awarding as well. It’s a “never” over sort of thing. Just sad if somebody can’t make those 2 events as there chances are pretty slim to win at that point. Give and take on that I guess.

- Let’s get some money from these rounds coming into a kitty or something. Run some skins matches at or near the end for those that made the minimum number of events. You get ranked based on a blend of saucer and PC points. Higher ranks play for more skin $. I love side games. Sport is not about simply improving ones game as that is very limited. Sport is about competing and competition comes from playing people of equal skill. I think skins are a great format when you’re carded with people of relatively equal skill. I can’t say enough about how much fun the OD skins are. This would be AM2 friendly.

Edit - Jeff to Geoff


Last edited by John Pytel on Fri Oct 29, 2010 10:27 am; edited 1 time in total
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julz
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 29, 2010 11:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

John Pytel wrote:


Where does one "sign up" or declare participation in the PC? What's the cost to be involved in it? We know what it's all about. I think the discussion points are almost all about "what it's not about" and "can we achieve more" with the same.


You just sign up by competing in the events listed on the PC page. If you want to compare yourself to a player in a higher division you play in that division. Just throwing from the same tee pads is not the best indicator. Because everyone knows that competing golf is mostly a mental game.

I think the PC is setup great the way it is because it makes players want to improve there game and move up to the higher divisions to compete. I understand still wanting to be competitive when in AM2. I was there at The CC in 2004 (http://www.odgc.ca/forums/viewtopic.php?p=6711#6711) competing in AM2. In the final round I played with OMR, Arthur and Jay and we had fierce battle. I can guarantee that it was that that drove me to better my game and practice almost every day. This wouldn't have happened (http://www.odgc.ca/forums/viewtopic.php?p=6825#6825) if I stayed in AM2 for The Plaid in 2004. Regardless if I won or not, the key is moving up.

Haha, I don't know where I'm going with this other than reliving the past. i guess, in conclusion, having AM2's not getting PC points in all events is not a big deal. Your day will come... use it as a goal to work towards. And although I totally understand the desire to compete (that's why I play DG), winning anything at that level should not be your end goal. You should always be looking ahead... trying to beat someone better than you!
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John Pytel
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 29, 2010 12:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

julz wrote:
John Pytel wrote:


Where does one "sign up" or declare participation in the PC? What's the cost to be involved in it? We know what it's all about. I think the discussion points are almost all about "what it's not about" and "can we achieve more" with the same.


You just sign up by competing in the events listed on the PC page. If you want to compare yourself to a player in a higher division you play in that division. Just throwing from the same tee pads is not the best indicator. Because everyone knows that competing golf is mostly a mental game.

I think the PC is setup great the way it is because it makes players want to improve there game and move up to the higher divisions to compete. I understand still wanting to be competitive when in AM2. I was there at The CC in 2004 (http://www.odgc.ca/forums/viewtopic.php?p=6711#6711) competing in AM2. In the final round I played with OMR, Arthur and Jay and we had fierce battle. I can guarantee that it was that that drove me to better my game and practice almost every day. This wouldn't have happened (http://www.odgc.ca/forums/viewtopic.php?p=6825#6825) if I stayed in AM2 for The Plaid in 2004. Regardless if I won or not, the key is moving up.

Haha, I don't know where I'm going with this other than reliving the past. i guess, in conclusion, having AM2's not getting PC points in all events is not a big deal. Your day will come... use it as a goal to work towards. And although I totally understand the desire to compete (that's why I play DG), winning anything at that level should not be your end goal. You should always be looking ahead... trying to beat someone better than you!


I hear you Collin and hopefully you hear me. I'm not looking at PC as something just to measure my game or cause me to want to improve my game. I'm looking at PC as "value added" by the club in order to encourage membership and participation.

In most successfull tournaments the AM2 field is the biggest field. On the OD tour it is. These are your "new" customers or people you hope to hook on the sport. We as a club should be trying to encourage and increase our AM2 numbers as it's the feeder channel. ODGC usually has less or nominal AM2 attendance outside of the Plaid. All the fun is in the "pooled AM1/Open" field with people stepping up into it. We appear to have larger AM1 fields. Is that because of the PC? Yes and No. I think it's because of the size of the club AND the fact that they will play the same tee's.

Is this material to PC? Yes and no.

How would the open field feel if the AM1's and AM2's where required to play the same tees? That would work well for the AM2's. Is this not the group we want to encourage to get better? Open is already there. AM1 means you're on your way. Hopefully you get the point on that. Classes exist for reasons. Pooling classes for PC purposes neglects other classes. Is that a required thing in determining the best player? The AM1's don't need to be in there as they won't win it.

If we had more people playing, and especially more new people playing the sport, these issues would be more prevalent. We're seeing new blood which is great and they are getting engaged. It'll help balance focus at the end of the day. We're a very mature club in that regard.
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julz
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 29, 2010 1:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I gotchya John... you're thinking at a way higher level than I was. I'm looking at it from an individuals perspective.

In terms of helping the sport/club I can see how the points could make sense.

To answer one of your questions, I don't think open players would care at all about AM1 or AM2 tee pads. They are only focused on themselves and preparing themselves for their rounds. At least, I think they shouldn't care. why would they? Again, maybe I thinking from the individuals perspective again.
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John Pytel
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 29, 2010 2:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

julz wrote:
I gotchya John... you're thinking at a way higher level than I was. I'm looking at it from an individuals perspective.

In terms of helping the sport/club I can see how the points could make sense.

To answer one of your questions, I don't think open players would care at all about AM1 or AM2 tee pads. They are only focused on themselves and preparing themselves for their rounds. At least, I think they shouldn't care. why would they? Again, maybe I thinking from the individuals perspective again.


Cool. If I were to define "inclusivity" in my discussion its not something required for PC's purpose but what could the club and broader community gain by it.

AM1's get treated the best from what I see. They get to play the same pads as open without the cost or head to head competition. I don't get it but I do think it happens for some reason(s) that I'm not aware of. Maybe it prevents watering down of the "numbers" too much at certain attendance levels. I think we also create some competion on results between the lower open and higher AM1 players which is cool. We've got TOSS and QB all year for that though.

To me making the levels distinguishable has more appeal all around. Once again that's just me. Maybe it's more relative once the player base reaches a certain critical mass.

I pushed very hard for the Ettyville OD stop to not have AM1 and Open play the same tee's all weekend. This was without even knowing PC had a requirement for them to be the same. That should show as evidence of my mental positioning on it.
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Thumber
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 02, 2010 10:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I haven't read this whole thread, but I get the gist that people want the PC series more inclusive.

From my point of view, every tourny we run recognizes divisional winners. I think the PC series should be the ranking of all golfers included in the series. I do not think it should be divided into divisions.

The PC race should be about where you rank in Ottawa. I want to see that ranking as a clean system, not divided by arbitrary divisions.

Instead of focusing on winning AM2, take a look at where you finished last year and set a goal of finishing higher. My goal this year was to finish in the top ten golfers in Ottawa. I am stepping up to Open next year because I want to compete with the best in the region.

When I first started in ottawa my first HC was something like 25. That year my goal was to get it into the teens. Next year the goal was single digits, etc. Why would you want to be the AM1 or 2 PC winner.....really you are just ranked 15th, or 21st or whatever....it is way more satisfying to improve against people on a level playing field.

I may be rambling but my point is, every event recognizes divisions and I think the PC series should simply be about who is the best in Ottawa, period. Its nice to know where you really stand.
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Thumber
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 02, 2010 11:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

lissyssil wrote:
How would the best players in Ottawa fare in the Open class of a National Tour, or A-Tier PDGA event in the states? My guess is that they'd get creamed. An Ottawa player's best chance for a good showing is at events like the AM Worlds. Truth be told, I don't think we're competitive enough for Open Competition in the States.

There must be more members of the ODGC than just myself who (though I may be years away from it) want to be competitive at an event like AM Worlds. Closing that door to me (once I step up to AM1) and others, by strictly limiting the chance to win the President's Cup to ODGC Open players seems pretty limiting, and far from inclusive, if you ask me.

Look at this year's CC... If PC were limited to Open by virtue of their use of different tee pads from the AM1 players, you'd be down to about six competitors genuinely vying for a chance at the PC Trophy.


Mark this is off base. Why do you deserve to win the PC race if you don't want to play against the best players in Ottawa? You're statements about if people are ready to play Open against the best is irrelevant. Its about what the individual wants to do. DG is a game you play against yourself. If I want to step up and get my butt handed to me, I am still going to learn way more than sandbagging and winning AM2 tiers.

I agree with julz that there is way too much desire to be inclusive. In no other sport do the best and worst play together. We already have that unique niche where the worst players and best players play together all the time.

Why can't there be a series that simply ranks everyone based on skill level? If you finish 34th, then set a goal of finishing 21st or better for next year, and so on....its how you will improve.

the rest of your rant about Ottawa not being ready to compete with other clubs is insulting at best. I did just fine against the OPen players I played in Cali last week.
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andros
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 02, 2010 11:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thumber wrote:
I did just fine against the OPen players I played in Cali last week.


Any big names?
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Thumber
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 02, 2010 11:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

andros wrote:
Thumber wrote:
I did just fine against the OPen players I played in Cali last week.


Any big names?


No, but they were both good players. I beat one and lost to the other after he hit a 375 foot ace
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lissyssil
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 02, 2010 12:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thumber wrote:
Mark this is off base. Why do you deserve to win the PC race if you don't want to play against the best players in Ottawa?

I have actually been arguing for the creation of a sub-tier to the PC, rather than suggesting that an AM2 player deserves to win the President's Cup. I agree that the PC should be for the best players in Ottawa. I did, however, make a case for the continued sharing of tee pads between AM1 and Open, in order to prevent an AM1 player who wishes to play AM Worlds from being disqualified from the PC race. Go back and read the thread regarding this point.

Quote:
You're statements about if people are ready to play Open against the best is irrelevant. Its about what the individual wants to do. DG is a game you play against yourself. If I want to step up and get my butt handed to me, I am still going to learn way more than sandbagging and winning AM2 tiers.

My recommendation for the creation of an AM2/3/Women Sub-PC-race was twofold:
1. Some lower-level players may feel more of a drive to compete at all/more events if they're given the chance to "win" something exclusive to their level of play; and
2. The way PC points are allotted now does not give an AM2 player a genuine indication of how he/she compares to other AM2 players. Creating a Sub-Tier to the PC race might engender some healthy competition at the lower-level.

Quote:
I agree with julz that there is way too much desire to be inclusive. In no other sport do the best and worst play together. We already have that unique niche where the worst players and best players play together all the time.

And I love that element of playing disc golf. It's a great night when I get to play on a card with guys like yourself, Penton, Twirly, etc. I get to learn, and watch how you're playing.

But, other sports do recognize the achievements of competitors at the lower levels, and crown champions at those lower levels. Look at the OCSL (soccer). Each of the five competitive divisions there name a champion each year.

Quote:
Why can't there be a series that simply ranks everyone based on skill level? If you finish 34th, then set a goal of finishing 21st or better for next year, and so on....its how you will improve.

Because our use of multiple tee pads across divisions prevents that. We're not all playing on the same playing field.

Quote:
the rest of your rant about Ottawa not being ready to compete with other clubs is insulting at best. I did just fine against the OPen players I played in Cali last week.


I made this statement in order to illustrate my point that there are probably some AM1 players who would like to be competitive at the World level, and that the best chance most club members will have at doing so would be at something like AM Worlds, rather than an NT or A-Tier event.

This was based on the suggestion that AM1 and Open players could play off different tee pads at events like the Capital Classic. This would inherently eliminate them from the PC race.

No disrespect, but please go back and read the entire thread. There's a lot of healthy discussion there.

I'd still like to hear opinions from the club executive on this thread.
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Thumber
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 02, 2010 1:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I actually did go back and read the whole thing. ( may have glossed some of Johnny's stuff....he is longer winded than I am)

If you want to run a separate series, have at er. That is the sort of volunteerism the club is trying to promote.

My point was that I want to know how I rank against the best in Ottawa, and the only way to do so is to play against them. I am never obligated to take cash so if I have a lofty goal of really competing at AM worlds then I can easily manage my status....its all about choices. If I cash, i am taking the cash, but that is my choice. Its all about the goals you set for yourself.

In terms of rewarding the AM2 sub classes, isn't that why you have divisions in tournaments? That is the reward for playing AM2-.....you get to win that division in the tournament. The PC race should be about determining where you stand relative to the other golfers in Ottawa. I get that AM2 isn't really included, but if the goal is to get that ranking, then step up and play in AM1. You will only get better, and get there much faster. Consider it one of the perks of playing up, you get to see where you stand relative to the best in ottawa, which in turn helps with goal setting.

In terms of other sports recognizing lower level performance, I think we do so in each tournament (or almost all them) and those other sports have a much much higher level of members. How many people are in soccer or hockey? With a small club you have to be very careful about over complication and volunteer burnout.

The multiple tee pads is a hard issue to solve. I can see and could easily argue either way. I like John's contention that true pro pads should separate the ams and pros. Not sure how you deal with this.

Does the Exec run the PC race? I don't think they do, and thus fail to see how their opinion would be as anything other than club members just like you and I.
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lissyssil
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 02, 2010 1:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thumber wrote:
Does the Exec run the PC race? I don't think they do, and thus fail to see how their opinion would be as anything other than club members just like you and I.

Club direction should be coming from the governing body of the club, i.e. The Executive. Yes, in the end, their vote should have no more weight than the vote of individual members, but they exist to make decisions on behalf of the club membership.

I recognize that the PC race is run by Geoff, and acknowledge that he's done a fantastic thing in managing it, but I'd like to see where people like our club president stand on the discussions in this thread.

As I've said a couple of times, I'd be glad to manage a lower-tier championship, but only if it will be recognized in the same manner that the PC race is, and endorsed by the club. That's why I'd like Executive input on this thread.
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Thumber
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 02, 2010 1:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

lissyssil wrote:
Thumber wrote:
Does the Exec run the PC race? I don't think they do, and thus fail to see how their opinion would be as anything other than club members just like you and I.

Club direction should be coming from the governing body of the club, i.e. The Executive. Yes, in the end, their vote should have no more weight than the vote of individual members, but they exist to make decisions on behalf of the club membership.

I recognize that the PC race is run by Geoff, and acknowledge that he's done a fantastic thing in managing it, but I'd like to see where people like our club president stand on the discussions in this thread.

As I've said a couple of times, I'd be glad to manage a lower-tier championship, but only if it will be recognized in the same manner that the PC race is, and endorsed by the club. That's why I'd like Executive input on this thread.


Fair enough. Start a new thread to make the proposal and pm the exec to ask for their public opinion / endorsement.
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Thumber
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 02, 2010 1:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Back to the main point of the thread, how to improve the PC race.

How do we address the Am1 versus Open tee pads issue.

I think having the Am1s play the same pads as the Open players encourages Am1 players to step up, though it may take a season to occur. Having a larger open division has positives and negatives.

The only time I get pissed at an open player saying step up, is when I get the feeling they just want larger payouts at my expense, but that's all part of the game.

I believe right now there are no tournys in the PC race where AM1 and Open play different tee pads.

The OD tour is different and not included anyway.
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Jefrey A. Brother
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 02, 2010 3:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

lissyssil wrote:

I'd still like to hear opinions from the club executive on this thread.


The reason you may not be hearing Exec comments in here is that A) they have chosen to not read 5 pages of Forum babble that is not their responsibility, or B) they understand that this Forum (the PC Forum) is under the responsibility of myself and I can handle matters pertaining to the PC Series.

Your request is not within the PC Series. I would suggest a PM or an email to execs_at_odgc_dot_ca to find the answers you are looking for.
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Ken Darcovich
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 02, 2010 3:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I commented on this thread last week.

For what it's worth, I'm on the Exec.
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Rolly
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 02, 2010 3:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Damn, thought this one was over....
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Thumber
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 02, 2010 4:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rolly wrote:
Damn, thought this one was over....


I wasn't here last week big grin
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Rolly
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 03, 2010 5:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'd say just go for it, and set up the am 2 points race. Ill donate a free entry to OMPLVI for the winner. I think its a great idea.
The Exec has not commented so far when asked, so it seems that they dont care about the above discussion, and wont care if you set it up.
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