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John Pytel
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 03, 2010 8:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jefrey A. Brother wrote:
lissyssil wrote:

I'd still like to hear opinions from the club executive on this thread.


The reason you may not be hearing Exec comments in here is that A) they have chosen to not read 5 pages of Forum babble that is not their responsibility, or B) they understand that this Forum (the PC Forum) is under the responsibility of myself and I can handle matters pertaining to the PC Series.

Your request is not within the PC Series. I would suggest a PM or an email to execs_at_odgc_dot_ca to find the answers you are looking for.


We're now over 1100 reads of that babble now. It's better to be known and not liked than not known at all. I think the "babble" has been good for the PC series.

I've tried to present some facts/points about the series mechanics and where it breaks down and create some discussion on how the series could achieve more event attendance and membership for the club without changing the outcome.

While I don't feel the "exec'" is the overlord of all things I'll point out that most people on the exec are posting from their personal perspective in my mind and not a "club" perspective.

Should the club have an interest in trying to add MORE value to non Open and AM1 classes? For sure. Look at the numbers. We've a bunch of new blood attending lots of events. I think it would look awesome for the club to show the high attendance happening by these new people at all these events in the PC matrix. The PC race covers every organized round of golf the club has. How about some acknowledgement when you hit a certain number of events by the club? Gold tag. Whatever.

To me it's just good business to consider all your customers and a perspective the executive has responsibility for. Not any one individual.

It would be nice to see evidence of the attendance numbers some AM2's are putting up that don't currently get acknowledged on the PC matrix.

I missed Shane. Very Happy
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Thumber
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 03, 2010 8:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I hear what you are saying John, but I have to question if the PC race is the appropriate tool for recognizing the great levels of participation from the new golfers this year. The PC series has a specific raison d'etre and hat is to show the best overall golfer in Ottawa throughout the year. The only thing the rest of we non-DG heroes get out of it is a ranking of where we sit relative to the top dog.

I am think mark's suggestion of another AM2 race is pretty good, but a pile more work for him.

I like how the PC series is simply about where we rank against each other and I don't know how you would tweak it to accommodate people playing very different sets of tees. This is also the reason I support the PC ranked tourny's having the AM1 and Open players on the same pads. I understand your contention but courses like Kanata, Shire and even CF are not really conducive to 3 sets of tees. In that respect, your fine course is the exception and I love it for those pro pads.

At the end of the day i feel if people want to be competing in the PC race then they should be playing Open or Am1. This sounds exclusive but I view it as one of the perks you get when you have developed your game to the point where you are competing with the top guns.

When i started here 3 seasons ago i was horrible. My HC was in the 20s, but i just kept practicing and working and this year I cracked the Top 10. Anyone can do this if they put the time in and one of the perks you get for all that practice is the ranking.

Just a thought.
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Jefrey A. Brother
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 03, 2010 2:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

John Pytel wrote:

It would be nice to see evidence of the attendance numbers some AM2's are putting up that don't currently get acknowledged on the PC matrix.


M. Atos - CC
R. Hale - CC

M. Atos - Plaid
S. Sivyer - Plaid
C. Burgoin - Plaid
R. Hale - Plaid
H. DeCoste - Plaid

Again I state:
Quote:
This is a series to recognize the top golfers in Ottawa.


Quote:
If someone would like to start an AM2 series I would support that.


Quote:
I am not going to pursue any more "inclusion" in the Presidents Cup Series. It is what it is. It will forever (well for the foreseeable future) be about the ODGC members who plays the best at ODGC tournaments. If the AM2s feel like they're left out then I have always been available for clinics, pointers and goal setting to improve their game so that they become part of the mix.

If the BS/handicap series could be tweaked to acknowledge great play across the board, then I think that's were we need to look. I am very open to including the BS Champ on the PC Cup trophy if it's worked to be more "competitive".


Quote:
The Presidents Cup Series will continue to be run the same way it was run this year with minor tweaks and fixes.


Quote:
For the AM2s this is not going to be a driving factor. I have abandoned the idea of finding a way for AM2 players to be apart of the PC if they don't play the same pads. It, sadly, is not for them while they are at their skill level. Hopefully it will be something that they can strive for and develop their game to be a part of.


Quote:
I am under no delusions that the PC Series will encourage people to become a member of the ODGC. I am of the mindset that if you play a course designed, managed, and paid for by the ODGC you would become a member because essentially (if you don't) you are stealing. This is what I think.


With the help of others I built a "series" around the already existing ODGC events that happen during the season (and Ice Bowl). My main goal was to not interfere with the nuances and uniqueness of the different events. Some have one division, some have 2, some have 8.

Unlike the OD Tour, I do not have the luxury of making sure all of the events have the same divisions. It is in the OD Tour's best interest to have many AM divisions, as this is where the $$ is (more plastic payouts = $$$).

There are many different types of events. Most are low cost entry (MOD $10, GOAT $15, Falling Colours $15, Oonie $10+, LNF $25). All are a blast. This series is about the ODGC. And the Presidents Cup is awarded to the golfer who performs the best, using the points system given, at ODGC events.

Quote:
If someone would like to start an AM2 series I would support that.


If the discussion is to continue about starting another series, or another way to reward/award players, please start a new thread in the Club House. PM Exec members to become part of the discussion.
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John Pytel
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 04, 2010 7:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jefrey A. Brother wrote:
John Pytel wrote:

It would be nice to see evidence of the attendance numbers some AM2's are putting up that don't currently get acknowledged on the PC matrix.


M. Atos - CC
R. Hale - CC

M. Atos - Plaid
S. Sivyer - Plaid
C. Burgoin - Plaid
R. Hale - Plaid
H. DeCoste - Plaid

That currently DON'T get recognized.



Quote:
I am not going to pursue any more "inclusion" in the Presidents Cup Series. It is what it is. It will forever (well for the foreseeable future) be about the ODGC members who plays the best at ODGC tournaments. If the AM2s feel like they're left out then I have always been available for clinics, pointers and goal setting to improve their game so that they become part of the mix.

If the BS/handicap series could be tweaked to acknowledge great play across the board, then I think that's were we need to look. I am very open to including the BS Champ on the PC Cup trophy if it's worked to be more "competitive".



I've been considering the Saucer series in my comments on this thread and I do agree. The handicap is about the only leveling field beyond same tee's and I do feel the Saucer is where AM2's do compete. The PC and Saucer exist in the same "sphere" on the site so organically get included at times.

Quote:
The Presidents Cup Series will continue to be run the same way it was run this year with minor tweaks and fixes.



Such as? Anything you've made a decision on?

Quote:
For the AM2s this is not going to be a driving factor. I have abandoned the idea of finding a way for AM2 players to be apart of the PC if they don't play the same pads. It, sadly, is not for them while they are at their skill level. Hopefully it will be something that they can strive for and develop their game to be a part of.


That's too bad. I wish we could go over some of the past two years results and run some scenario's and look at the outcomes. At one point you were entertaining giving minimum points to AM2's. I suggested giving a tier'd points to an AM2. This is not about putting an AM2 on the PC trophy but giving the AM2 the ability to see how they rank in their division. The Saucer does not give an AM2 that ranking and if it's about competitive play then the "handicap" is only so good.

Quote:
Quote:
I am under no delusions that the PC Series will encourage people to become a member of the ODGC. I am of the mindset that if you play a course designed, managed, and paid for by the ODGC you would become a member because essentially (if you don't) you are stealing. This is what I think.


With the help of others I built a "series" around the already existing ODGC events that happen during the season (and Ice Bowl). My main goal was to not interfere with the nuances and uniqueness of the different events. Some have one division, some have 2, some have 8.

Unlike the OD Tour, I do not have the luxury of making sure all of the events have the same divisions. It is in the OD Tour's best interest to have many AM divisions, as this is where the $$ is (more plastic payouts = $$$).

There are many different types of events. Most are low cost entry (MOD $10, GOAT $15, Falling Colours $15, Oonie $10+, LNF $25). All are a blast. This series is about the ODGC. And the Presidents Cup is awarded to the golfer who performs the best, using the points system given, at ODGC events.


Don't confuse this discussion with a lack of respect or acknowledgement for the hard work and the great series that was created. Really just trying to help and share ideas. I still feel this series does encourage people to become members if they want to win it OR will attend more events to improve their game and see how they rank. Throw money behind winning it and then the interest would only go up. PC is great added value and I wouldn't sell it short like that. Saucer is as well.


Quote:
If someone would like to start an AM2 series I would support that.



Oddly I'm not a big fan of this idea simply because the PC and Saucer can achieve and for the most part do this. With tweaks it can only get better. I also don't see an "AM2" series if something where to develop. I'd see a series that would rank Open, AM1, AM2, all series against their results in their respective divisions. I see lots's of cross over with a series like that and Saucer and PC.

If the cub continues to grow in membership and the "sport" develops more in general the mechanics of all things will change. For what the ODGC is today the mechanics of the series work. I'm the first to admit I'm looking at where the issues are or when it will break down(pads). I'm not saying it's broken.
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Jefrey A. Brother
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 04, 2010 9:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

John Pytel wrote:
Jefrey A. Brother wrote:
John Pytel wrote:

It would be nice to see evidence of the attendance numbers some AM2's are putting up that don't currently get acknowledged on the PC matrix.


M. Atos - CC
R. Hale - CC

M. Atos - Plaid
S. Sivyer - Plaid
C. Burgoin - Plaid
R. Hale - Plaid
H. DeCoste - Plaid

That currently DON'T get recognized.


These players were entered in the only two events with divisions that DIDNíT get included in the PC points. These are members that DIDN'T get included in the stats because of it.



Quote:

I've been considering the Saucer series in my comments on this thread and I do agree. The handicap is about the only leveling field beyond same tee's and I do feel the Saucer is where AM2's do compete. The PC and Saucer exist in the same "sphere" on the site so organically get included at times.


There has been no discussion in this discussion about the BS.

Quote:

Such as? Anything you've made a decision on?


The three rules that were supposed to be the subject for discussion will be implemented.

Quote:


That's too bad. I wish we could go over some of the past two years results and run some scenario's and look at the outcomes.


I can send you my files for your analysis.

Quote:

I suggested giving a tier'd points to an AM2. This is not about putting an AM2 on the PC trophy but giving the AM2 the ability to see how they rank in their division.

Was this your suggestion?

Quote:
2) Don't give the AM2's the lowest of anything. Give them appropriate points for how they finished in their respective class.

Either way appears to require players to be in a class. Declared or determined. Highest level you competed at that season or something.

Have the same point system but award the points based on how you finished in your class. Ties in finishing place go to the tougher class awarded first.

So something like.

1st in pro gets first in PC points.
1st in AM1 gets 2nd PC points.
1st in AM2 gets 3rd PC points.
2nd in pro gets 4th PC points.
2nd in AM1 gets 5th PC points.
2nd in AM2 gets 6th PC points.



Quote:

Throw money behind winning it and then the interest would only go up.


How would this money be raised?


Quote:

I'd see a series that would rank Open, AM1, AM2, all series against their results in their respective divisions.


So an AM1 player wouldnít be able to win the Cup?
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John Pytel
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 04, 2010 12:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'll try and break it up a bit.

Jefrey A. Brother wrote:
John Pytel wrote:
Jefrey A. Brother wrote:
John Pytel wrote:

It would be nice to see evidence of the attendance numbers some AM2's are putting up that don't currently get acknowledged on the PC matrix.


M. Atos - CC
R. Hale - CC

M. Atos - Plaid
S. Sivyer - Plaid
C. Burgoin - Plaid
R. Hale - Plaid
H. DeCoste - Plaid

That currently DON'T get recognized.


These players were entered in the only two events with divisions that DIDNíT get included in the PC points. These are members that DIDN'T get included in the stats because of it.

Ice Bowl? I started there and assumed differently. Point is just to see the "boxes" filled for these people.
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John Pytel
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 04, 2010 12:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:


Quote:

I've been considering the Saucer series in my comments on this thread and I do agree. The handicap is about the only leveling field beyond same tee's and I do feel the Saucer is where AM2's do compete. The PC and Saucer exist in the same "sphere" on the site so organically get included at times.


There has been no discussion in this discussion about the BS.



I suppose when either of use referenced "saucer" we meant "flying saucers"?
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Jefrey A. Brother
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 04, 2010 12:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

John Pytel wrote:
I'll try and break it up a bit.

Jefrey A. Brother wrote:
These players were entered in the only two events with divisions that DIDNíT get included in the PC points. These are members that DIDN'T get included in the stats because of it.

Ice Bowl? I started there and assumed differently. Point is just to see the "boxes" filled for these people.


Ice Bowl had everyone play the same pads. AM2s were included.

This rule was proposed to solve the empty boxes.

Jefrey A. Brother wrote:
RULE CHANGE - PC Points given to AM 2 and AM 3 division players as well.

Players playing in AM 2 and AM 3 divisions will earn the lowest points available to a player depending on the Tier and the amount of players playing.

Rationale: The PC Series is supposed to be inclusive and with the growing amount of recreation golfers joining the competitive realm it's important to acknowledge their participation and dedication to the sport.

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Jefrey A. Brother
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 04, 2010 12:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

John Pytel wrote:
Quote:


Quote:

I've been considering the Saucer series in my comments on this thread and I do agree. The handicap is about the only leveling field beyond same tee's and I do feel the Saucer is where AM2's do compete. The PC and Saucer exist in the same "sphere" on the site so organically get included at times.


There has been no discussion in this discussion about the BS.





I suppose when either of use referenced "saucer" we meant "flying saucers"?


Huh?!?
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John Pytel
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 04, 2010 12:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:


Such as? Anything you've made a decision on?


The three rules that were supposed to be the subject for discussion will be implemented.

Quote:


NOT TO BE INCLUDED IN THE 2011 PC SERIES

RULE CHANGE - PC Points given to AM 2 and AM 3 division players as well.

Players playing in AM 2 and AM 3 divisions will earn the lowest points available to a player depending on the Tier and the amount of players playing.

Rationale: The PC Series is supposed to be inclusive and with the growing amount of recreation golfers joining the competitive realm it's important to acknowledge their participation and dedication to the sport.





Is this one of the 3? I might be missing what those 3 are.
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Jefrey A. Brother
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 04, 2010 12:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The 3 rules, which were the reason for this thread, are posted on page 1 of this discussion.
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John Pytel
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 04, 2010 12:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jefrey A. Brother wrote:
John Pytel wrote:
I'll try and break it up a bit.

Jefrey A. Brother wrote:
These players were entered in the only two events with divisions that DIDNíT get included in the PC points. These are members that DIDN'T get included in the stats because of it.

Ice Bowl? I started there and assumed differently. Point is just to see the "boxes" filled for these people.


Ice Bowl had everyone play the same pads. AM2s were included.

This rule was proposed to solve the empty boxes.

Jefrey A. Brother wrote:
RULE CHANGE - PC Points given to AM 2 and AM 3 division players as well.

Players playing in AM 2 and AM 3 divisions will earn the lowest points available to a player depending on the Tier and the amount of players playing.

Rationale: The PC Series is supposed to be inclusive and with the growing amount of recreation golfers joining the competitive realm it's important to acknowledge their participation and dedication to the sport.


Am I looking at the right Ice Bowl?


Ottawa Ice Bowl IX - results
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John Pytel
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 04, 2010 12:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jefrey A. Brother wrote:
The 3 rules, which were the reason for this thread, are posted on page 1 of this discussion.


Thanks for the clarification. The 3 I think I see includes this one. Is it one of the 3?

Quote:


NOT TO BE INCLUDED IN THE 2011 PC SERIES

RULE CHANGE - PC Points given to AM 2 and AM 3 division players as well.

Players playing in AM 2 and AM 3 divisions will earn the lowest points available to a player depending on the Tier and the amount of players playing.

Rationale: The PC Series is supposed to be inclusive and with the growing amount of recreation golfers joining the competitive realm it's important to acknowledge their participation and dedication to the sport.

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John Pytel
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 04, 2010 12:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Quote:



That's too bad. I wish we could go over some of the past two years results and run some scenario's and look at the outcomes.


I can send you my files for your analysis.



Great. It might take some of the emotion out of the discussion when there's numbers to look at.
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John Pytel
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 04, 2010 12:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Quote:


I suggested giving a tier'd points to an AM2. This is not about putting an AM2 on the PC trophy but giving the AM2 the ability to see how they rank in their division.

Was this your suggestion?

Quote:
2) Don't give the AM2's the lowest of anything. Give them appropriate points for how they finished in their respective class.

Either way appears to require players to be in a class. Declared or determined. Highest level you competed at that season or something.

Have the same point system but award the points based on how you finished in your class. Ties in finishing place go to the tougher class awarded first.

So something like.

1st in pro gets first in PC points.
1st in AM1 gets 2nd PC points.
1st in AM2 gets 3rd PC points.
2nd in pro gets 4th PC points.
2nd in AM1 gets 5th PC points.
2nd in AM2 gets 6th PC points.


It was one of my ideas early on. I think I've made some better ones since then though. That was when I thought we were talking inclusivity in the context of all divisions competing for the cup though.
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John Pytel
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 04, 2010 12:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Quote:


Throw money behind winning it and then the interest would only go up.


How would this money be raised?


Lot's of ways but practically I think it would be from the event registration fee or part of the sanctioning fee. CTP's or Ace Pool could work. Nothing to go much deeper into anyones pockets though. A PC registration fee doesn't seem appropriate as that would take away from the value we hope to gain from somebody being included and wanting to attend more events.
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John Pytel
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 04, 2010 1:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Quote:


I'd see a series that would rank Open, AM1, AM2, all series against their results in their respective divisions.


So an AM1 player wouldnít be able to win the Cup?


Cup? This would be something better than a cup. Gold Medals!!!!

Seriously. It could recognize achievement in each division. I think it would be just like any event. More prestige winning the higher classes.

The only way I see some AM1 winning the PC Cup is if they're a real up and rising star where they absolutely need to protect that amateur status. Their cup overflow'th already.
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 04, 2010 1:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

John Pytel wrote:

Am I looking at the right Ice Bowl?


Ottawa Ice Bowl IX - results


Yes.
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 04, 2010 1:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

John Pytel wrote:

Great. It might take some of the emotion out of the discussion when there's numbers to look at.


I'll email sometime tonight.
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 04, 2010 1:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

John Pytel wrote:
Jefrey A. Brother wrote:
The 3 rules, which were the reason for this thread, are posted on page 1 of this discussion.


Thanks for the clarification. The 3 I think I see includes this one. Is it one of the 3?

Quote:


NOT TO BE INCLUDED IN THE 2011 PC SERIES

RULE CHANGE - PC Points given to AM 2 and AM 3 division players as well.

Players playing in AM 2 and AM 3 divisions will earn the lowest points available to a player depending on the Tier and the amount of players playing.

Rationale: The PC Series is supposed to be inclusive and with the growing amount of recreation golfers joining the competitive realm it's important to acknowledge their participation and dedication to the sport.



It did.
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