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Jefrey A. Brother
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 27, 2010 1:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The following tournaments/events will count AM2s toward the total amount of players playing: TOSS, OMPL, MOD, and if all the teams play the same tees, Tree-OH.
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John Pytel
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 27, 2010 2:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

deuce wrote:
Ok, I see. That makes perfect sense. That thinking is probably rooted in most courses only having two sets of tees, unlike the great setup you have at your course. It would certainly make a player think more about the decision to play AM1 vs Open.

I really enjoyed the long tees at SH. I usually play better from the longs than the shorts for whatever reason, although this wasn't the case at SH. I played well off the tee, but my putting was atrocious. With any luck, I'll be back there next year for revenge.


The layout is a start but thanks for the comments.

Thanks for the SH feed back. I didnít play them and they looked pretty tough to me. Iíd like to crunch some numbers on how AM1ís and Open score on same tee results.

My guess is that the 2 are meeting in the middle.

I'd also like to add the 2 tee format's also have an effect on which class people register for. If the tee's are the same it takes that out of the equation. Do people step up more because of this? Probably. Do people step up because the "challenge" is within their game. Probably.


Last edited by John Pytel on Wed Oct 27, 2010 2:10 pm; edited 1 time in total
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lissyssil
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 27, 2010 2:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jefrey A. Brother wrote:
The following tournaments/events will count AM2s toward the total amount of players playing: TOSS, OMPL, MOD, and if all the teams play the same tees, Tree-OH.


I assume Falling Colours is in that list too?

It's a perfectly good way to address it, but, if a LowerTier championship is created, those events will need to be taken into consideration for that tier too. Like I mentioned before, I'm more than happy to manage the LowerTier championship, and do the necessary segregating for those events.

Shouldn't this whole discussion be put to the club for decision? Or at least the executive?
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Jefrey A. Brother
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 27, 2010 2:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

lissyssil wrote:


I assume Falling Colours is in that list too?



TOSS events are ranked according to QB and AVG DIFF. These do not need to be seperated into divisions.

OMPL is a match play league. You are ranked based on your record and your performance in the playoffs. If the OMPL champ beats 16 players in the league, then they beat 16 players.

Oonie is a match play elimination tournie. You are ranked based on your performance throughout the day. If the King beats 12 people that day, I don't care what divisions the players were that he/she beat.

MOD is a doubles tournament with ONE division. The winning team beat the other teams.

If you wish to filter through the players and give out AM2 points for another series then I support you.


Quote:

Shouldn't this whole discussion be put to the club for decision? Or at least the executive?


I've been very patient with regards to this discussion. If you want to run another series for AM2 players then do it.

If Eric Vinet plays The GOAT and Falling Colours and beats EVERYONE who participates on the same tees, then he deserves recongition for his achievment. 16 players showed up, he beat 16 players. In fact, he came second in the BS! And he was out of first by .5 of a stroke!

The Presidents Cup Series will continue to be run the same way it was run this year with minor tweaks and fixes.

Again, if you want to run a series...
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Last edited by Jefrey A. Brother on Wed Oct 27, 2010 2:52 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Jefrey A. Brother
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 27, 2010 3:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

With regard to AM1 and Open tee pads:

PC Rules wrote:

6. All tournaments included in the PC 2010 will allow players from both the Amateur divisions and the Open divisions to accumulate points toward their totals. Though, a player must compete in the top Am division, or Open division to have their points count towards their totals.

7. All tournaments in the PC race will have the top Am division play the exact same t-pads as the Open division.


I have no problem with AM1s and Open players playing different tees; that is a decision that the TD will have to make. I will make a change to #7 to give the TD that option.

This will force some AM1 players to have to make the "jump" to Open if they want to compete in the PC Series. Players like Shane, Andros, Deuce and Old Man will have to make a decision with respect to that. For the CC that means more $$ and a smaller chance to ca$h, and if they do cash, lose their Amateur status in the PDGA.

By making the AM1 players play different tees, we've just excluded them from two of the Tier 1 events in the PC Series, and therefore making it that much harder to compete in the PC and the BS series (which is sad because it has been won by AM1 players the past two years).

Tournaments such as The GOAT, Falling Colours and LNF will continue to include AM1s in the PC. Events such as TOSS and TOSS QB will continue to reward players of all abilities with PC points and $$$.

{EDIT: Changed "off" to "of"}


Last edited by Jefrey A. Brother on Wed Oct 27, 2010 3:16 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Jefrey A. Brother
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 27, 2010 4:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

John Pytel wrote:

Why do I not show on the PC list?


You show now.
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lissyssil
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 28, 2010 7:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jefrey A. Brother wrote:
With regard to AM1 and Open tee pads:

This will force some AM1 players to have to make the "jump" to Open if they want to compete in the PC Series. Players like Shane, Andros, Deuce and Old Man will have to make a decision with respect to that. For the CC that means more $$ and a smaller chance to ca$h, and if they do cash, lose their Amateur status in the PDGA.

By making the AM1 players play different tees, we've just excluded them from two of the Tier 1 events in the PC Series, and therefore making it that much harder to compete in the PC and the BS series (which is sad because it has been won by AM1 players the past two years).


Dear AM1 players of the ODGC:

If you want to maintain your Amateur status, with the hopes of an invitation to prestigious events like the PDGA Amateur Worlds, forget about any chances you might have of winning the President's Cup. Ever.


So much for inclusivity.
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Jefrey A. Brother
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 28, 2010 8:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Exactly why this rule was written:

PC Rules wrote:

6. All tournaments included in the PC 2010 will allow players from both the Amateur divisions and the Open divisions to accumulate points toward their totals. Though, a player must compete in the top Am division, or Open division to have their points count towards their totals.

7. All tournaments in the PC race will have the top Am division play the exact same t-pads as the Open division.

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John Pytel
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 28, 2010 8:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jefrey A. Brother wrote:
John Pytel wrote:

Why do I not show on the PC list?


You show now.


Cool and thanks. I've taken the time to try and formalize some points for consideration. I'll polish it up and hopefully post it later today.
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lissyssil
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 28, 2010 8:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jefrey A. Brother wrote:
Exactly why this rule was written:

PC Rules wrote:

6. All tournaments included in the PC 2010 will allow players from both the Amateur divisions and the Open divisions to accumulate points toward their totals. Though, a player must compete in the top Am division, or Open division to have their points count towards their totals.

7. All tournaments in the PC race will have the top Am division play the exact same t-pads as the Open division.


So why rewrite it? Leave the rule the way it is, and the inclusivity is still there, not at the discretion of the Tournament Director.

Unfortunately for John, this doesn't coincide with his concept of tees. While I understand both his and Deuce's points of view, the way the PC Championship runs for the club, the only way to keep it inclusive is to have the AM1 and Open players play the same tees.

Alternately, the whole thing could be blown up, you could have different tee pads for all divisions, and champions announced in each division, each year. Kinda like the way OD does it.
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julz
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 28, 2010 10:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

lissyssil wrote:


Dear AM1 players of the ODGC:

If you want to maintain your Amateur status, with the hopes of an invitation to prestigious events like the PDGA Amateur Worlds, forget about any chances you might have of winning the President's Cup. Ever.


So much for inclusivity.


That's a little over dramatic.

This whole issue of "inclusivity" is going way too far. I think it's great that we have more and more players that care enough to want to be a part of and compete in the PC. But it's about being the best you can be. It's about competing with other local golfers. It's about improving your game.
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lissyssil
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 28, 2010 11:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

How would the best players in Ottawa fare in the Open class of a National Tour, or A-Tier PDGA event in the states? My guess is that they'd get creamed. An Ottawa player's best chance for a good showing is at events like the AM Worlds. Truth be told, I don't think we're competitive enough for Open Competition in the States.

There must be more members of the ODGC than just myself who (though I may be years away from it) want to be competitive at an event like AM Worlds. Closing that door to me (once I step up to AM1) and others, by strictly limiting the chance to win the President's Cup to ODGC Open players seems pretty limiting, and far from inclusive, if you ask me.

Look at this year's CC... If PC were limited to Open by virtue of their use of different tee pads from the AM1 players, you'd be down to about six competitors genuinely vying for a chance at the PC Trophy.
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Jefrey A. Brother
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 28, 2010 11:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jefrey A. Brother wrote:
Exactly why this rule was written:

PC Rules wrote:

6. All tournaments included in the PC 2010 will allow players from both the Amateur divisions and the Open divisions to accumulate points toward their totals. Though, a player must compete in the top Am division, or Open division to have their points count towards their totals.

7. All tournaments in the PC race will have the top Am division play the exact same t-pads as the Open division.

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Ken Darcovich
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 28, 2010 11:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

lissyssil wrote:
How would the best players in Ottawa fare in the Open class of a National Tour, or A-Tier PDGA event in the states?


Ottawa players can hold their own in top level tournaments.

I'd say you're right about A-Tier events, which are frequently wait-listed or invitational, but I know we've had success in Open such as the Can-Am cup event where our Pros have scored wins over high-ranked Pros from other cities. Other examples were Dobrev cashing a few times in upstate NY and in 04 (this was Europe, not the States... but..) I won Pro Masters at the Dutch Open, a field of 17 players, most of whom were rated in the 950-990 range.

We can do it. And we need to play in these events sometimes, to have the first hand look at what it takes to play top level disc golf. Any mechanisms we can implement here that encourage competitive play, and player development are most welcome. There are plenty of other venues for less serious disc golf. Don't forget, all of this is volunteer driven, so if a particular volunteer orients his activities to a certain level, that is the person's prerogative, and the reception it gets speaks for itself.

I like to compare this evolution to what took place in Ultimate in Canada over the past 15 years. The Vancouver clubs set their sights at the TOP level, namely UPA championships in the US, while clubs in the east were satisfied competing domestically. It was only when eastern clubs started getting serious about playing in the UPA club series that they were able to get to a level to challenge Vancouver. I think Furious (the Van. club) went undefeated inside Canada from about 1997 to 2008.
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lissyssil
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 28, 2010 11:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jefrey A. Brother wrote:
Exactly why this rule was written:

PC Rules wrote:

6. All tournaments included in the PC 2010 will allow players from both the Amateur divisions and the Open divisions to accumulate points toward their totals. Though, a player must compete in the top Am division, or Open division to have their points count towards their totals.

7. All tournaments in the PC race will have the top Am division play the exact same t-pads as the Open division.


Jefrey A. Brother wrote:
I have no problem with AM1s and Open players playing different tees; that is a decision that the TD will have to make. I will make a change to #7 to give the TD that option.


Again, BBP, why rewrite it to allow the TD to reduce the inclusivity of the PC Cup Race?
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Jefrey A. Brother
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 28, 2010 12:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jefrey A. Brother wrote:

The Presidents Cup Series will continue to be run the same way it was run this year with minor tweaks and fixes.

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John Pytel
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 28, 2010 12:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

julz wrote:
lissyssil wrote:


Dear AM1 players of the ODGC:

If you want to maintain your Amateur status, with the hopes of an invitation to prestigious events like the PDGA Amateur Worlds, forget about any chances you might have of winning the President's Cup. Ever.


So much for inclusivity.


That's a little over dramatic.

This whole issue of "inclusivity" is going way too far. I think it's great that we have more and more players that care enough to want to be a part of and compete in the PC. But it's about being the best you can be. It's about competing with other local golfers. It's about improving your game.


Where does one "sign up" or declare participation in the PC? What's the cost to be involved in it? We know what it's all about. I think the discussion points are almost all about "what it's not about" and "can we achieve more" with the same.

To me it's not an issue of "inclusivity" on the pads as much as the requirements are that Open and Top AM classes have to play the same tee's. It works when that requirement is met. When that requirement is not met there's a break down. The breakdown currently exists at the AM2. I've also got some more thoughts on this that I'll postlater on the effect of the difficulty levels of the pads to the adjusted scoring system.

More importantly than improving ones game is these series should encourage participation and membership which is the life blood of the club.

This is where the "inclusivity" is important if you want to create additional participation value.
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lissyssil
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 28, 2010 12:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jefrey A. Brother wrote:
Jefrey A. Brother wrote:

The Presidents Cup Series will continue to be run the same way it was run this year with minor tweaks and fixes.


Cool. Thank you Geoff.
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Jefrey A. Brother
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 28, 2010 1:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

John Pytel wrote:

Where does one "sign up" or declare participation in the PC? What's the cost to be involved in it?


If you are a member of the ODGC and you participate in an ODGC event you become a participant. The cost? To the participant? Is the cost of the event you are participating in. The real cost? About 3 hours of my time every time a PC event takes place.

Quote:

More importantly than improving ones game is these series should encourage participation...


For the AM2s this is not going to be a driving factor. I have abandoned the idea of finding a way for AM2 players to be apart of the PC if they don't play the same pads. It, sadly, is not for them while they are at their skill level. Hopefully it will be something that they can strive for and develop their game to be a part of.

Quote:
and membership...


I am under no delusions that the PC Series will encourage people to become a member of the ODGC. I am of the mindset that if you play a course designed, managed, and paid for by the ODGC you would become a member because essentially you are stealing. This is what I think.

The PC series is for the top golfers in the region. If you aren't there yet I have already stated:
BBP wrote:
If the AM2s feel like they're left out then I have always been available for clinics, pointers and goal setting to improve their game so that they become part of the mix.

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lissyssil
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 28, 2010 1:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ken Darcovich wrote:
I'd say you're right about A-Tier events, which are frequently wait-listed or invitational, but I know we've had success in Open such as the Can-Am cup event where our Pros have scored wins over high-ranked Pros from other cities. Other examples were Dobrev cashing a few times in upstate NY and in 04 (this was Europe, not the States... but..) I won Pro Masters at the Dutch Open, a field of 17 players, most of whom were rated in the 950-990 range.

You're right Ken, and I do stand corrected.

Quote:
Don't forget, all of this is volunteer driven, so if a particular volunteer orients his activities to a certain level, that is the person's prerogative, and the reception it gets speaks for itself.

Understood. And seeing the success Rolly has built of the OMPL, I will take on the task of managing an "Emergent Players" series next year for the ODGC, in order to recognize up-and-coming competitive players.

Quote:
The Vancouver clubs set their sights at the TOP level, namely UPA championships in the US, while clubs in the east were satisfied competing domestically.


Were there "junior" clubs to the top Vancouver clubs? Junior series/divisions? Were the top teams in those divisions rewarded and recognized for their efforts? What did the Vancouver clubs do to engender the advancement of players to the top level?
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