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John Pytel
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 27, 2010 8:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jefrey A. Brother wrote:
John Pytel wrote:

One last question though. Why do I not show on the PC list?


Show what? Show up? Human error.


I scored points at MOD. Lot's of rules so I'm not sure if I didn't qualify for some reason.
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lissyssil
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 27, 2010 8:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I understand the inclusion of Open and AM1 players in a single "division" when it comes to PC points. They all play off the same tees, and therefore should be evaluated equally.

I also see why there is difficulty in evaluating players who do not play off the same tees as the Open/AM1 group at any tournament.

The problem is, that if you want the PC Points race to be inclusive of AM2, then AM2 players (and this is my opinion, as an AM2 player who will probably play AM2 again next year) need something to compete for. It's all well and good to assign us PC points, but the truth of the matter is that no matter how this is done, we know we're not the "best players in Ottawa", and that we really shouldn't be competing for the President's Cup.

I think that the best way to address this, to give the AM2 players something to compete for, hopefully to influence them to play more tournaments, would be to inaugurate a "Vice-President's Cup", to recognize the best up-and-coming AM2 player in the club each year.

The Vice-President's cup could follow the same scoring procedure as the President's Cup, but the number of players at any tournament would be decided only by the number of AM3, AM2, and AW players for that tournament, just like PC points are awarded based on the number of Open and AM1 players...

Will this encourage sandbagging? Probably. How do you address this? Perhaps by utilizing a PDGA rating system, or even ODGC's handicaps to set a cutoff for AM2... Say, if your handicap is under 13, or 14 at the start of the season, you are ineligible for AM2, and must play AM1. Or, you could employ the method used by the OD Tour, where if you win the AM2 championship (and Vice-President's cup) in any given year, you must step up to AM1 for ODGC events the following year...

If it's a matter of time and effort, I'll volunteer to manage the Vice-President's Cup race. Very Happy

More fuel for the fire of discussion...

Mark
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deuce
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 27, 2010 9:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

As a new AM player trying to rise through the ranks I thought I'd post how I see things. Please bear in mind I don't have the history of what's been tried, what hasn't worked, etc.

As an AM1 player, I really like playing the same tees as the Open players. It serves as a great measure of where I stand against the top players. It helps me decide when I'm ready to jump to Open. It also allows AM1 players to compete in the PC race. I haven't heard the debate about this before, so I'm curious as to the reasoning to keep them on separate tees.

I've never considered the PC series too inclusive as I've always viewed it as the measure of the top players in the region, a group I am not a part of. I'd echo BBP in that I certainly hope to be in that group in the next couple years. The Bourgie Saucer Race has been a good system for the players striving to reach the Open division. Andros and Shane were top two last year. I don't think anyone would argue that they made huge strides in their games. Same with Simon this year. He's made huge improvements in his game, and the results show that. My handicap has fallen 12 strokes since the start of TOSS, so I think the system works well to keep skill in line with handicap. As John mentioned, there is the risk of someone improving outside of ODGC, and then dominating an event because of a skewed handicap. This isn't likely to work more than a few times, before their handicap starts to reflect their play. I don't see any way to improve this further, without over complicating the system.

I've played AM2 once (my first tourney - last year's Plaid). My goal was to get to AM1, and eventually Open so I can compete in the PC race. Because I was so focused on that goal, I never really thought about the need for an AM2 PC-type system. With that said, I could see an AM2 PC-type system working for more casual players. A Vice-PC race if you will smile As it's been decided here already, trying to weigh PC points for AM2 players is likely not feasible or desirable.

My $0.02 - in ramble form no less. smile
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John Pytel
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 27, 2010 9:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I like it Mark. I consider the AM1's the Vice President's cup though. We'd need to be the Associate Vice President's cup.

In the context of "something" to compete for. This is what it's all about to me. My handicap indicates my "ranking" more or less or as much as I care to know it.

I like ranking when it matters for something. This is what I'm trying to put together.

I like series that FURTHER encourage participation as that's good for the club. This is also that added value I'd like to include.
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Jefrey A. Brother
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 27, 2010 10:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

John Pytel wrote:
Jefrey A. Brother wrote:
John Pytel wrote:

One last question though. Why do I not show on the PC list?


Show what? Show up? Human error.


I scored points at MOD. Lot's of rules so I'm not sure if I didn't qualify for some reason.


I'm assuming you are a member. Are you a Lifetime? Were your dues current as of the CC? If you answer "yes" to any of the above, it was an error on my part. I'll will fix it.

There are not "lot's of rules". There are rules, yes.
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Jefrey A. Brother
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 27, 2010 10:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Making a "Vice-Presidents Cup" is mocking the Presidents Cup.
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lissyssil
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 27, 2010 10:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jefrey A. Brother wrote:
Making a "Vice-Presidents Cup" is mocking the Presidents Cup.

I disagree completely. Think of the Vice-President's Cup as the Formula 3000 to Formula 1, or the AHL to the NHL, or Junior WRC to WRC...

If you excel at the first, you might be competitive in the second, and if you win the first, you've got a good chance of making your way to the top of the second at some point in your career.

Call it whatever you want, but I think Vice-President's Cup is fitting. It shows a strong tie between the two Cup races, while still indicating the inferiority (literally) of the lower tier championship.

Does crowning an AM2 champion in the OD Tour make a mockery of crowning an AM1 champ? Or AM1 to Open? No. It's a way of recognizing that there are multiple, and significantly different levels of play in the sport, and a way to reward those that excel within their classes.
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Jefrey A. Brother
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 27, 2010 10:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The name of the Presidents Cup was named after the Presidents of the ODGC. There are no Vice-Presidents.

If you want to run a series for AM2s then go for it. I won't have to have this discussion next year.
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Jefrey A. Brother
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 27, 2010 10:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jefrey A. Brother wrote:

I'm assuming you are a member. Are you a Lifetime? Were your dues current as of the CC? If you answer "yes" to any of the above, it was an error on my part. I'll will fix it.

There are not "lot's of rules". There are rules, yes.


In fact, this is the only rule that applies to this situation:

3. Only CURRENT ODGC Members are included in the PC Series. You must be current by the Capital Classic to be included in the Presidents Cup Series (exceptions will be made for players becoming LIFETIME ODGC (current) Members during the PC season).
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John Pytel
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 27, 2010 11:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jefrey A. Brother wrote:
John Pytel wrote:
Jefrey A. Brother wrote:
John Pytel wrote:

One last question though. Why do I not show on the PC list?


Show what? Show up? Human error.


I scored points at MOD. Lot's of rules so I'm not sure if I didn't qualify for some reason.


I'm assuming you are a member. Are you a Lifetime? Were your dues current as of the CC? If you answer "yes" to any of the above, it was an error on my part. I'll will fix it.

There are not "lot's of rules". There are rules, yes.


lol. Yes I'm lifetime. Yes I'm current.

Lot's of rules wasn't meaning too many or overbearing or anything like that. Just lot's of factors I suppose. Current, minimums, etc. I thought I could have been excluded for some participation minimum requirements. or the fact that Rolly carried us in MOD... smile
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Jefrey A. Brother
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 27, 2010 12:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

John Pytel wrote:


lol. Yes I'm lifetime. Yes I'm current.

Lot's of rules wasn't meaning too many or overbearing or anything like that. Just lot's of factors I suppose. Current, minimums, etc. I thought I could have been excluded for some participation minimum requirements. or the fact that Rolly carried us in MOD... smile


No none of the above, just a mistake on my part. When I get home I'll fix the Final standings.

I sometimes have players fall through the cracks as I'm always looking for verification of Member status (that's the worst part of this responsibility and not being on the Exec).
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lissyssil
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 27, 2010 12:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jefrey A. Brother wrote:
The name of the Presidents Cup was named after the Presidents of the ODGC.


K. I was unaware of this fact. Perhaps the "Emergent Players' Cup"? Or, as jokingly recommended to me by e-mail today, the "Secretary's Cup", or "Treasurer's Cup"?

I'd like to hear the opinion of the Club Executive on this. I'd love to run a "Cup" series for the lower tier players in the ODGC, but only if it's sanctioned by the Club, and recognized as an ODGC series.

This might even make events like the Plaid and Falling Colours more relevant to the Open and AM1 players, as these tournaments would no longer have inflated points totals for participants, making the CC, etc. just as valuable PC Points wise.
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Jefrey A. Brother
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 27, 2010 12:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

lissyssil wrote:

This might even make events like the Plaid and Falling Colours more relevant to the Open and AM1 players, as these tournaments would no longer have inflated points totals for participants, making the CC, etc. just as valuable PC Points wise.


I don't follow. Please explain.
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lissyssil
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 27, 2010 12:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jefrey A. Brother wrote:
lissyssil wrote:

This might even make events like the Plaid and Falling Colours more relevant to the Open and AM1 players, as these tournaments would no longer have inflated points totals for participants, making the CC, etc. just as valuable PC Points wise.


I don't follow. Please explain.


Sorry, not the Plaid, as it's multi division, but the concept still holds for Falling Colours, TOSS, TOSS QB, LNF...

WRT PC Points, because Falling Colours is a single-division event, attendance numbers for PC Points are artificially elevated. By segregating the lower AM divisions from the PC Points race completely, it means that all PC Point handouts will be based solely on the PC Competitors that play the tournament.

It's a little abstract, but what I'm suggesting is that the PC Points handouts for an event like Falling Colours would no longer be 110% (or 115%, or whatever) of the handouts for the CC (not taking into consideration the tier of these events), as the PC Points handout would no longer be inflated by the lower division attendance.

Single division events in 2010 rewarded Open/AM1 players by pitting them against an inflated field of competitors (who in general have no chance of beating the Open/AM1 players anyways.)
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Jefrey A. Brother
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 27, 2010 12:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

So you're suggesting not including any player designated an AM2 in any ODGC event in the PC standings? So if an AM2 player scores better than an AM1 player it won't affect the AM1 as the AM2 player doesn't really exist.

K. If that is what AM2 players want, then I will not count any of them as being there.

Would an AM2 be considered an AM2 player the entire season?

Could they switch from an AM2 to a "regular" player as they wish?

Will I have to find out which designation each AM2 player is playing in?

What happens in MOD and an AM2 player is teamed with a "regular" PC participant? Tree-Oh? Will the whole team not count? Just the AM1s will count?

I think the Oonie will not allow AM2 designations.

What about OMPL?
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Jefrey A. Brother
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 27, 2010 1:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

TOSS?

You've just made my volunteer job a lot more complicated.
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lissyssil
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 27, 2010 1:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jefrey A. Brother wrote:
So you're suggesting not including any player designated an AM2 in any ODGC event in the PC standings? So if an AM2 player scores better than an AM1 player it won't affect the AM1 as the AM2 player doesn't really exist.

Exactly. Just like when a GT2 race car driver beats a GT1 driver at Le Mans. The GT1 driver gets GT1 points as though the GT2 competitor didn't exist.

Quote:
K. If that is what AM2 players want, then I will not count any of them as being there.

I don't know what the AM2 players want, I'm just making suggestions that are open for discussion.

Quote:
Would an AM2 be considered an AM2 player the entire season?

Could they switch from an AM2 to a "regular" player as they wish?

Yes, and yes. But, a player that switches to AM1 then begins to earn PC Points, rather than LowerTier Points, which will probably put them out of the running for either cup that year. Their choice. Again, just like a F3000 racer who quits F3000 in the middle of the season because he's offered a spot on an F1 team. He's not going to win either championship that year.

Quote:
Will I have to find out which designation each AM2 player is playing in?

No, just maintain a list of players eligible for PC Points. Any player not eligible for PC Points will be covered by the LowerTier trophy. Sure, if a new player shows up for a single division tournament, he/she will need to declare their intentions ("I consider myself an AM1/AM2 player"), but these cases will be few and far between, and relatively unimportant in this conversation.

Quote:
What happens in MOD and an AM2 player is teamed with a "regular" PC participant? Tree-Oh? Will the whole team not count? Just the AM1s will count?

MOD: Three teams play. Two teams are an AM1 and AM2 player, one team is an Open and AM1 player. Pretend that one of the AM1/2 teams wins, the Open/AM1 team places second, and the other AM1/2 finishes third. PC Points would be awarded based on four players. LowerTier points awarded based on two players. The winning AM1 player receives First place PC Points. Each player on the Open/AM1 team shares second/third place points. The AM1 player on the third place team receives fourth place points. The AM2 player on the winning team receives first place LowerTier points, and the AM2 player on the third place team receives second place LowerTier points.

I think the same concept could be applied to the Tree-Oh.

Quote:
I think the Oonie will not allow AM2 designations.

I'm not familiar with the Oonie, but don't see why the same concept as described for MOD wouldn't work.

Quote:
What about OMPL?

See MOD.
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lissyssil
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 27, 2010 1:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jefrey A. Brother wrote:
TOSS?

Same concept as MOD.

Quote:
You've just made my volunteer job a lot more complicated.

Only in that you need to maintain a list of players eligible for PC Points, and you'll need to segregate out those players from the LowerTier players at single division events.

Yes, it's more complicated, but I still stand by my statement that giving the LowerTier players something to compete for (where they're not facing the UpperTier players) would be a good thing.
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John Pytel
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 27, 2010 1:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
As an AM1 player, I really like playing the same tees as the Open players. It serves as a great measure of where I stand against the top players. It helps me decide when I'm ready to jump to Open. It also allows AM1 players to compete in the PC race. I haven't heard the debate about this before, so I'm curious as to the reasoning to keep them on separate tees.



Here's some of my thoughts on this Deuce. I think about sets of tees as to what their purpose is. That purpose is to have players of different "classes" go out and achieve the same par on the hole. We use tee's more often than not to just give use another 18 holes. How many DG rounds get played with people playing from different tee's on the card? We just don't do it. WHite ball. Happens all the time.

I'm going to continue the white ball comparison.

When you have 2 sets of tees it'd be like red's and white's or red and blue's. Get into serious white ball courses then you have red, white , blue, and gold per say.

As an open and AM1 player you can play the whites and compete within reason as it's "short game". Move to the blue and your score to par on that hole will start to show where one is to be. Move to the gold and the differential should be more obvious.

When I say Open and AM1's shouldn't play the same tee's I'm not saying AM1's play the shorts. I'm saying there should be more tee options.

The "pro" tees I've tried to put in where designed with the same intent as white ball tee's. The intent of the 3 tees is to give the "open" player the same challenge to par as and AM1 player would have playing the "Mid's" and that an "AM2" would have playing the shorts.

If one is scoring well they should be able to jump tee's and see how they play to par to know as well.

I'd say you enjoy playing the same tee's as the "Open" players because the tee's are probably in between the skill set of AM1 and Open most of the time. If they're more to AM1 you'll hear the open saying how easy it is. If it's to the hard side or "open" calibre you'll hear the AM1's complaining about how hard it is.


While I can't say the sports are that similar but take a look at white ball. The various pads are all on the same hole with simply distance and the inclusion or exclusion of hazards. DG??? Lot's of the times it's just about variety or a change of approach.

Tee pad's are not being used the same in the 2 sports.

Hope that makes sense.

How did you find the longs tee's at Screaming Heads?
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deuce
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 27, 2010 1:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ok, I see. That makes perfect sense. That thinking is probably rooted in most courses only having two sets of tees, unlike the great setup you have at your course. It would certainly make a player think more about the decision to play AM1 vs Open.

I really enjoyed the long tees at SH. I usually play better from the longs than the shorts for whatever reason, although this wasn't the case at SH. I played well off the tee, but my putting was atrocious. With any luck, I'll be back there next year for revenge.
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