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Jefrey A. Brother
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 25, 2010 2:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

John Pytel wrote:
Nothing changes the fact that this is an series that about 6-8 people in the region have a chance to participate in. Win is even smaller group.

I just see it as measurement system for the few "open" players that will reward "AM1" players under the right conditions but will never crown them a winner.


Even as far as 5 years ago the there were five "top" golfers in Ottawa, Meldrum, Twirls, Colin, Arthur and ET. I was not in the mix. I never thought I would never be crowned a winner. And I hope the AM1s (and Ottawa "open" players) coming up the ranks are thinking the same.

The 2012 PC Series will be hottly contested.

AM1 players are never encouraged to play Open. This is why the PC includes them in them points and they can still play their division for the event.
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julz
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 25, 2010 2:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think benefits for higher divisions are incentive for players to practice, try harder and move up. If the plaid jacket was given out to each division, think of how many AM-2s there would be.
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John Pytel
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 25, 2010 2:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jefrey A. Brother wrote:
John Pytel wrote:
Nothing changes the fact that this is an series that about 6-8 people in the region have a chance to participate in. Win is even smaller group.

I just see it as measurement system for the few "open" players that will reward "AM1" players under the right conditions but will never crown them a winner.


Even as far as 5 years ago the there were five "top" golfers in Ottawa, Meldrum, Twirls, Colin, Arthur and ET. I was not in the mix. I never thought I would never be crowned a winner. And I hope the AM1s (and Ottawa "open" players) coming up the ranks are thinking the same.

The 2012 PC Series will be hottly contested.

AM1 players are never encouraged to play Open. This is why the PC includes them in them points and they can still play their division for the event.


There's nothing wrong with the size of that group and it'll always be that way. It is what it is.

I guess I just see the "up and comers" or "who had a great year" not in the mix other than Saucer. That's not to say they deserve to be in the PC mix but the "club" mix. Obviously Simon's ODGC handicap hasn't caught up to his game which also shows our adjustment system may need some tweeking.

Is PC points a good guage for an AM1 to know when he's ready for Open? I think it is absolutely that as it's same tee result analysis. Can we make a system that would do the same for an AM2? Probably but it wouldn't come from "nominal" participation points. It'd have to be handicap adjusted I think.
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John Pytel
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 25, 2010 2:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

One other thing...

I also don't think AM1 and Open should be playing the same tee's. This is probably why and where I see the classes existing more than the current reality.

I present that case at my events to make the Open different than the AM1. This is why we have classes outside of Amateur status which is "no matter status" to me.

I think AM1's get it easy in this regard. They get everything out of it without stepping up. Other than Amateur status is this not a form of encouraged sand bagging?
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Jefrey A. Brother
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 25, 2010 2:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

John Pytel wrote:

I guess I just see the "up and comers" or "who had a great year" not in the mix other than Saucer. That's not to say they deserve to be in the PC mix but the "club" mix.


Again, just like last year, what would you suggest?

Quote:
Obviously Simon's ODGC handicap hasn't caught up to his game which also shows our adjustment system may need some tweeking.


Or Simon showed up and played above his head at LNF and The Plaid. Simon's first round was incredible, and he knew it. It caught him several times during the second round, but he kept it together. Some players get a bad hole and it takes a couple of holes to get it back together. For Simon, on Plaid Sunday, it took the next throw. He got out of trouble and played on. He never gave up. I bet if you asked him, he'd say he played well enough to win the Adj Score.
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Jefrey A. Brother
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 25, 2010 2:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

John Pytel wrote:
One other thing...

I also don't think AM1 and Open should be playing the same tee's. This is probably why and where I see the classes existing more than the current reality.

I present that case at my events to make the Open different than the AM1. This is why we have classes outside of Amateur status which is "no matter status" to me.

I think AM1's get it easy in this regard. They get everything out of it without stepping up. Other than Amateur status is this not a form of encouraged sand bagging?


In any other region I may agree with you. In our region, were we have Ottawa tournaments, OD Tour events, and PDGA events the AM1 and Open status mean different things.

AM1 players shouldn't be forced/pressured to play Open at the CC. This would take their AM status away for other PDGA events. I know they can decline the $$, or apply to have their AM status done again, or some other new way of fixing this problem. So why should the Ottawa race not include them?

After that, there's only the Plaid that has divisions. All other events have one division. I have a question for you, who in Ottawa is an Open player?
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John Pytel
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 25, 2010 2:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jefrey A. Brother wrote:
John Pytel wrote:

I guess I just see the "up and comers" or "who had a great year" not in the mix other than Saucer. That's not to say they deserve to be in the PC mix but the "club" mix.


Again, just like last year, what would you suggest?.


Did I not suggest anything last year? I think more emphasize on the saucer points. Not at the expense of anything else. Handicaps is the only thing to bridge the same tee pad issues.

Quote:
Obviously Simon's ODGC handicap hasn't caught up to his game which also shows our adjustment system may need some tweeking.


Jefrey A. Brother wrote:

Or Simon showed up and played above his head at LNF and The Plaid. Simon's first round was incredible, and he knew it. It caught him several times during the second round, but he kept it together. Some players get a bad hole and it takes a couple of holes to get it back together. For Simon, on Plaid Sunday, it took the next throw. He got out of trouble and played on. He never gave up. I bet if you asked him, he'd say he played well enough to win the Adj Score.


It could be that too. It'd shake out in the numbers. I just saw great improvements at the Pelican and he can even be quoted on the improvements he says he's made. I think it just speaks to the flaws inherent with any system.
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Jefrey A. Brother
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 25, 2010 2:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Outside of Canada, I would prefer to play in the AM1 division. There are lower fees, I don't need to gamble and win $$ and I don't consider myself a Professional Disc Golfer.

Most of Ottawa's events are competitive for all players. If we look over the winners of Ottawa events, which players are AM1 and which are Open?

The GOAT - Eric
King of the Oonie - Andros
Falling Colours - Eric
OMPL IV - Rolly
Ice Bowl - Huot
MOD - Penton and Svetkoff

Would you have picked any of these players to be professional calibre? Or open? Seperating the AM1s from the PC would have resulted in a very one sided PC champion, as the 2010 PC Champ came second in four of the above six events.
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Jefrey A. Brother
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 25, 2010 4:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

John Pytel wrote:


Did I not suggest anything last year? I think more emphasize on the saucer points. Not at the expense of anything else. Handicaps is the only thing to bridge the same tee pad issues.
....

It could be that too. It'd shake out in the numbers. I just saw great improvements at the Pelican and he can even be quoted on the improvements he says he's made. I think it just speaks to the flaws inherent with any system.


And when the BS 2011 turns out another champion will the "flaws inherent with any system" be used against him as well?
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Rolly
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 25, 2010 5:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Can we have a mission statement of what the PC points system is trying to achieve? If its supposed to be competitive then running the points anyway then they have been like at the CC or the Plaid will be a failure to that.


How are they being exclusive?(since they need to be more inclusive)?

The only way I can think of the PC system needing to be more inclusive is to of course include the OD tour events in the PC system.

I would say think about getting rid of the tiers and base the points strictly on players one has beat in a given tournament. Big events will still score big points, and everything is more relative.

Include also Ice league in the standings,


Last edited by Rolly on Mon Oct 25, 2010 5:58 pm; edited 2 times in total
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andros
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 26, 2010 5:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rolly wrote:
Include also Ice league in the standings,


You're joking right? Ice league is for fun and doesn't belong in the PC.
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Jefrey A. Brother
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 26, 2010 6:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rolly wrote:
If its supposed to be competitive then running the points anyway then they have been like at the CC or the Plaid will be a failure to that.


I don't understand this statement. Could you elaborate?

Quote:

How are they being exclusive?(since they need to be more inclusive)?


I was asked why a Member didn't receive points at an event and it was because they didn't play the same tees as the higher divisions. I felt that a way to give them points was in order. Then this happened.

Quote:

The only way I can think of the PC system needing to be more inclusive is to of course include the OD tour events in the PC system.


I asked. The OD Tour said no.

Quote:

I would say think about getting rid of the tiers and base the points strictly on players one has beat in a given tournament. Big events will still score big points, and everything is more relative.


This is off topic and not up for discussion.

Quote:

Include also Ice league in the standings,


Ice League is a series in itself and involves mulligans and SYN cards that you must purchase. It is the off season and they won't be included in the PC Series.
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Rolly
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 26, 2010 6:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

[quote="Jefrey A. Brother"]
Rolly wrote:
If its supposed to be competitive then running the points anyway then they have been like at the CC or the Plaid will be a failure to that.


I don't understand this statement. Could you elaborate?

[quote]

If the PC is supposed to be competitive then making it inclusive by including others that are not on a similar course or ranked by score in a way like what was done at the CC would be throwing a wrench at what the PC is supposed to be. The way it worked at the CC ( i dont know the plaid deets) is the most honest true way it can be handled if its intended to be competitive. PC points were awarded based on score straight up for the weekend, and players could play in what ever div they wanted(Same course I know..). Handing points based on what div one plays in will completely mess the scale of the points up. Players would have inflated PC points scores when others whom played better that weekend would have less.

How to include the unincluded.

Play event-->4 rounds (am2's etc play seperate pads no PC points)

take the rating of all players for the 4 rounds and avg them to find the average rating over the 4 rounds. (allpdga ratings rules apply (same pads etc))

Ratings(4 round avg) should at this point be relative to the rankings of the event based on score

Rank Open and Am1's for PC points like normal by strokes. Include in the table the avg rating for the 4 rounds in a seperate column. Column should go from high rating to low as you go from 1st to worst.

Take the am2's ratings compared from there own ratings pool and slot them in individually where their avg rating over the 4 rounds fits in with the list of the open and Am1's


So down the list for PC points it reads:
rank Name rating
xxx are all Am1 and Open Players


13th xxxx 912
14th xxxx 910
15th Am2 player 908
16th xxx 908
17th am2 player 905
18th xxx 901
19th Rolly 801

Then they are thrown into our pool based on how they played the course they played. Its still competitive, and includes them. Its not perfect, but if we want to include all that dont play open or am1 it wont be.







Quote:

Then this happened.
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Jefrey A. Brother
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 26, 2010 6:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wow.
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Jefrey A. Brother
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 26, 2010 6:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rolly wrote:
Handing points based on what div one plays in will completely mess the scale of the points up. Players would have inflated PC points scores when others whom played better that weekend would have less.



Agreed.
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John Pytel
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 27, 2010 7:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jefrey A. Brother wrote:
John Pytel wrote:


Did I not suggest anything last year? I think more emphasize on the saucer points. Not at the expense of anything else. Handicaps is the only thing to bridge the same tee pad issues.
....

It could be that too. It'd shake out in the numbers. I just saw great improvements at the Pelican and he can even be quoted on the improvements he says he's made. I think it just speaks to the flaws inherent with any system.


And when the BS 2011 turns out another champion will the "flaws inherent with any system" be used against him as well?


I don't understand this statement Jeff? No flaws with the PC determining the best player in the city in my mind. Used agains them?

BS just has the ability for somebodies game, to get better playing somehwere else, and they're handicap hasn't caught up at the ODGC.

I thought we were discussing how to include AM2's more into PC?
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John Pytel
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 27, 2010 7:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jefrey A. Brother wrote:
Outside of Canada, I would prefer to play in the AM1 division. There are lower fees, I don't need to gamble and win $$ and I don't consider myself a Professional Disc Golfer.

Most of Ottawa's events are competitive for all players. If we look over the winners of Ottawa events, which players are AM1 and which are Open?

The GOAT - Eric
King of the Oonie - Andros
Falling Colours - Eric
OMPL IV - Rolly
Ice Bowl - Huot
MOD - Penton and Svetkoff

Would you have picked any of these players to be professional calibre? Or open? Seperating the AM1s from the PC would have resulted in a very one sided PC champion, as the 2010 PC Champ came second in four of the above six events.


All levels in the states aside levels do exist in Ottawa. That list to me has 5 open players, one top AM1 player and one AM2 player. That's the way I interpret local levels. Open / Pro is just a reflection of that group of players that I see at the area events that play in the top classes offered.
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Jefrey A. Brother
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 27, 2010 8:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I am not going to pursue any more "inclusion" in the Presidents Cup Series. It is what it is. It will forever (well for the foreseeable future) be about the ODGC members who plays the best at ODGC tournaments. If the AM2s feel like they're left out then I have always been available for clinics, pointers and goal setting to improve their game so that they become part of the mix.

If the BS/handicap series could be tweaked to acknowledge great play across the board, then I think that's were we need to look. I am very open to including the BS Champ on the PC Cup trophy if it's worked to be more "competitive".
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John Pytel
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 27, 2010 8:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jefrey A. Brother wrote:
I am not going to pursue any more "inclusion" in the Presidents Cup Series. It is what it is. It will forever (well for the foreseeable future) be about the ODGC members who plays the best at ODGC tournaments. If the AM2s feel like they're left out then I have always been available for clinics, pointers and goal setting to improve their game so that they become part of the mix.

If the BS/handicap series could be tweaked to acknowledge great play across the board, then I think that's were we need to look. I am very open to including the BS Champ on the PC Cup trophy if it's worked to be more "competitive".


I agree. The PC series is what it is and it's anything from broken for its purpose as long as AM1's get the luxury of playing the Open tee's all the time. Something we all know I'm not a fan of. Anything else attempting to be more inclusive will have to be something in addition to this. I've got some ideas but won't plaster this thread with them. I'll PM you those.

One last question though. Why do I not show on the PC list?
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Jefrey A. Brother
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 27, 2010 8:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

John Pytel wrote:

One last question though. Why do I not show on the PC list?


Show what? Show up? Human error.
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