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Thumber
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 23, 2010 8:42 am    Post subject: HC Question Reply with quote

Paul,

It appears my HC dropped a full point witht his update from 8.4 to 7.4....is this correct?

thx
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burjwahzeh
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 23, 2010 9:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yup. CC results had a big effect. There are five rounds of results in that update if you played the Capital Classic.
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Thumber
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 23, 2010 9:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

that explains things....thx for clearing it up
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Thumber
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 14, 2011 10:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Is it possible to have a negative handicap? Say a -2? So if you shot a 54 you would adjust to a 56?
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 14, 2011 10:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thumber wrote:
Is it possible to have a negative handicap? Say a -2? So if you shot a 54 you would adjust to a 56?

Handicaps have a hard-stop at 0, but the differentials that you accumulate to calculate your handicaps may be negative.

Or, put another way:

(For a player with a complete history of 20 rounds)
Your handicaps is based on the average of the best 10 of your last 20 round differentials (times the "ratio of excellence" of 90%).

Those differentials may include negative numbers if you shoot better than scratch during a given round.

If the average of the differentials of the best 10 of your last 20 rounds is a negative number, your handicap is considered to be "scratch", or "zero".

If the average of the differentials of the best 10 of your last 20 rounds is greater than 40, your handicap is considered to be 40.

(NB: I could be convinced to lower this upper limit. 40 strokes is rediculous in disc golf).
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Thumber
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 14, 2011 10:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

burjwahzeh wrote:
Thumber wrote:
Is it possible to have a negative handicap? Say a -2? So if you shot a 54 you would adjust to a 56?

Handicaps have a hard-stop at 0, but the differentials that you accumulate to calculate your handicaps may be negative.

Or, put another way:

(For a player with a complete history of 20 rounds)
Your handicaps is based on the average of the best 10 of your last 20 round differentials (times the "ratio of excellence" of 90%).

Those differentials may include negative numbers if you shoot better than scratch during a given round.

If the average of the differentials of the best 10 of your last 20 rounds is a negative number, your handicap is considered to be "scratch", or "zero".

If the average of the differentials of the best 10 of your last 20 rounds is greater than 40, your handicap is considered to be 40.

(NB: I could be convinced to lower this upper limit. 40 strokes is rediculous in disc golf).


Thanks Paulie....makes sense


If we are voting, then I agree 40 is a ridiculously high ceiling

The reason I asked was i saw some guy in the States talking about his son (7) having an HC of -25 and his was +3
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burjwahzeh
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 14, 2011 10:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

That's a 28 stroke difference between frolfer mom and golfer jr.
Re limits:
If the upper limit was made 20 strokes, it would affect 13 of 103 players.
If it was made 25, it would affect 2.

The problem always becomes context:
25 strokes (or even 30) is conceivable at Ettyville, but certainly not at Kanata.
24 is an attractive number: that's a stroke a hole, plus 6: 1.33 strokes a hole.

Compare that to BBP, who gets 2 strokes over 18 rounds.

Say, did you know you can use your handicaps in match play?
Calculate the difference between yours and your opponents, round to the nearest whole number (round up 0.5 and above), and that is how many strokes the higher handicap player is given, spread out over the "hardest" holes (i.e. 4 strokes - one stroke on the hardest hole , one on the next hardest, another on the next hardest, and another on the 4th hardest holes). Don't know what the hardest holes are? Just go ahead and agree on them before a round.
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lissyssil
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 14, 2011 10:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It took me eight rounds of TOSS plus the Cap Classic to get my handicap from 26.6 to 20.0. I moneyed twice at TOSS over that period (two second place finishes). It felt great to know that on those two occasions, I was playing well against the adjusted field, and that I was playing "better" than lots of other people out on the course. Granted, it was an adjusted better, but it was better.

But, the biggest incentive for me to play better was watching that handicap fall over the course of the season. Nine strokes in a year? That's AWESOME! And, it's not something that's going to happen to anyone if the handicap cap is set to 20 strokes. Not only that, but setting the cap to 20, or 25, or even thirty strokes will make awarding the "Most Improved Player" at LNF more difficult, won't it?

I say it ain't broke, don't fix it. Nobody complained about a 22 or 23 handicapper cashing at TOSS a couple of times last year, why would it be an issue going forward?

Just my opinion.
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 14, 2011 12:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

lissyssil wrote:
Nobody complained about a 22 or 23 handicapper cashing at TOSS a couple of times last year, why would it be an issue going forward?


Nobody complained? In THIS club?

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burjwahzeh
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 14, 2011 2:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

lissyssil,
the downward trend of your differential at (only) TOSS events for that season is used to determine "most improved", not the handicap. This wouldn't change.

The handicap is only used for seeding purposes in assigning cards and for determining adjusted score winners. It's also a tie breaker for ODGC Performance Rankings (see those in the Club House).

In view of its uses, the only way capping the handicap at 20 would be noticable to you is:
1) You wouldn't have automatically been seeded last in determining card orders; and
2) You would have a more difficult time cashing until your game hit the 20 handicap threshold.

Looking back at the numbers, you would not have cashed twice in the season for second place, but you would still have cashed in week 17 (when your handicap hit 20.0, coincidentally), and likely beyond.

Having a view to those 90 of 103 people below the 20 threshold, I don't think you'll find many that would argue that either of these is a huge shortcoming.
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Last edited by burjwahzeh on Fri Jan 14, 2011 2:17 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Thumber
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 14, 2011 2:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Suck it up atos
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John Pytel
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 14, 2011 2:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

burjwahzeh wrote:
lissyssil,
the downward trend of your differential at (only) TOSS events for that season is used to determine "most improved", not the handicap. This wouldn't change.

The handicap is only used for seeding purposes in assigning cards and for determining adjusted score winners. It's also a tie breaker for ODGC Performance Rankings (see those in the Club House).

In view of its uses, the only way capping the handicap at 20 would be noticable to you is:
1) You wouldn't have automatically been seeded last in determining card orders; and
2) You would have a more difficult time cashing until your game hit the 20 handicap threshold.

Looking back at the numbers, you would not have cashed twice in the season for second place, but you would still have cashed in week 17 (when your handicap hit 20.0, coincidentally), and likely beyond.

Having a view to those 90 of 103 people below the 20 threshold, I don't think you'll find many that would argue that either of these is a huge shortcoming.
big grin


Paul,

I think I've a 20.3 handicap. Groan.

Would I be prevented from cashing until I get it below 20?

If so then I'm not for lowering the upper limit. smile

Seriously. If people are active members, maintaining an active handicap, why would we drop it to exclude members?

I'm more sensitive to the handicap updating quickly enough.

If there's a flaw in my opinion it's that. You're able to improve your play significantly in this sport over a short period of play/time that your best 10 does not reflect it quick enough. I can't imagine how somebody could shave 15 strokes off a white ball handicap in less than 10 registered rounds but you could do it in this sport.

Have you ever looked at a formula to weight higher the lastest rounds? This could also work to the benefit of somebody who's had a drop in their performance or playing injured. The handicap would adjust up quicker.
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Thumber
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 14, 2011 2:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think you would just have a 20 HC John....not that you would be prevented from cashing.

In whiteball the max is 40 I believe...at least it was when I was a junior
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 14, 2011 2:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thumber wrote:
I think you would just have a 20 HC John....not that you would be prevented from cashing.

In whiteball the max is 40 I believe...at least it was when I was a junior


Par 54's - 20 probably works.

Par 72's - 40 probably works.

Interestingly they are 18 strokes apart.
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 14, 2011 3:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

John Pytel wrote:
Thumber wrote:
I think you would just have a 20 HC John....not that you would be prevented from cashing.

In whiteball the max is 40 I believe...at least it was when I was a junior


Par 54's - 20 probably works.

Par 72's - 40 probably works.

Interestingly they are 18 strokes apart.

You're absosmurfly right, JP!
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Thumber
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 14, 2011 3:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

so in effect it would just mean minimum HC is 0 and max is 20?

This could make it so before you establish a HC with 3 rounds you default to 20 and are allowed to compete.....unless we get some hotshot travelers through I don't see an issue with this
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 14, 2011 3:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thumber wrote:
so in effect it would just mean minimum HC is 0 and max is 20?

This could make it so before you establish a HC with 3 rounds you default to 20 and are allowed to compete.....unless we get some hotshot travelers through I don't see an issue with this


I'd rather see "earned" HCs instead of defaults. You gotta commit!
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Thumber
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 14, 2011 3:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jefrey A. Brother wrote:
Thumber wrote:
so in effect it would just mean minimum HC is 0 and max is 20?

This could make it so before you establish a HC with 3 rounds you default to 20 and are allowed to compete.....unless we get some hotshot travelers through I don't see an issue with this


I'd rather see "earned" HCs instead of defaults. You gotta commit!


fair enough...just thinking out loud
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 14, 2011 3:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thumber wrote:
Jefrey A. Brother wrote:
Thumber wrote:
so in effect it would just mean minimum HC is 0 and max is 20?

This could make it so before you establish a HC with 3 rounds you default to 20 and are allowed to compete.....unless we get some hotshot travelers through I don't see an issue with this


I'd rather see "earned" HCs instead of defaults. You gotta commit!


fair enough...just thinking out loud


I appreciate that. "Thinking out loud", that is.
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lissyssil
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 14, 2011 3:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

burjwahzeh wrote:
lissyssil,
the downward trend of your differential at (only) TOSS events for that season is used to determine "most improved", not the handicap. This wouldn't change.
Oh. K. Well, that eliminates one of my arguments against.

Quote:
The handicap is only used for seeding purposes in assigning cards and for determining adjusted score winners. It's also a tie breaker for ODGC Performance Rankings (see those in the Club House).
But that's not the only way that I've been using it. I used my handicap all season to track whether I was improving or not, or how much of an improvement I was making week to week.

Quote:
In view of its uses, the only way capping the handicap at 20 would be noticable to you is:
1) You wouldn't have automatically been seeded last in determining card orders;
Honestly, I never even considered that as a negative aspect of TOSS. There was enough variance in the people that played throughout the season that I never felt as though I was "getting stuck on the same card" or similar. I got to play with the best disc golfers in Ottawa, and the not best golfers.

Quote:
and
2) You would have a more difficult time cashing until your game hit the 20 handicap threshold.

Looking back at the numbers, you would not have cashed twice in the season for second place, but you would still have cashed in week 17 (when your handicap hit 20.0, coincidentally), and likely beyond.

Having a view to those 90 of 103 people below the 20 threshold, I don't think you'll find many that would argue that either of these is a huge shortcoming.
I agree with you. Anyone under 20, including myself, won't see it as a negative change to the HC system. Hell, those over 20 probably won't either, as their expectation should be, as mine was, that cashing wasn't going to happen. smile

Cashing was only a great bonus for playing a better than average round. It was, however, entirely fun to see that I was having a better round relative to my typical performance than some other golfers were to theirs.

Paul, if I'm correct, capping the HC at any number won't mean any less work for you, as all players' HCs must be calculated after each round anyways, in order to determine whether or not they've fallen under the threshold.

Yes, TOSS events at Kanata (or any par 54 course of the likes) will always pay out to the higher handicapped players. If Penton and I both had average days at Kanata, I'd probably beat him in adjusted score. But, if we played Ettyville, or Fortune longs, there's very little doubt in my mind that he'd beat me.

To put it another way, using Penton's HC of 2.0, and mine of 17.6, on a par 72 course, Geoff gets a margin of error of 2.8%, and I get a margin of error of 24.4%. Move to a par 54 course, and Geoff gets 3.7%, while my margin of error balloons to 32.6%. This leads me to believe that the handicapping system is inherently flawed because we play on courses with vastly different par. A more accurate way of approaching it might be (and I'm certainly not advocating this as a change we should consider) to calculate handicaps not as fixed numbers, but as percentage over par on each of the courses. That way, the margin of error for any golfer is the same course to course.

Capping the HC at 20 would probably still give a 21 or 22 handicapper a win over Penton at Kanata, and it's just going to destroy a 26 or 27 handicapper at Ettyville.

Thumbellina wrote:
This could make it so before you establish a HC with 3 rounds you default to 20 and are allowed to compete.....unless we get some hotshot travelers through I don't see an issue with this
That does make it a big issue though, and one that is controlled well by the three round minimum. That's one thing that I definitely think isn't broke, and really shouldn't be fixed.
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