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Ken Darcovich
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 09, 2010 8:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

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deuce
Big-Arm


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 09, 2010 9:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

John, huge thanks for the great hospitality!! Good eats, drinks, company and an amazing course!
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axelfudge
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 09, 2010 10:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wonderful times! Thanks John

... and thanks for a great round from my card!
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John Pytel
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 09, 2010 11:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jefrey A. Brother wrote:
That course is something you'd see at a Worlds. Some 1000 rated players could shoot in the 40s. And I would still put the 1000 rated par at 60.

A top rated player could play the course:

#1 - 2 (P3)
#2 - 3 (P3) (I took a 2 with a "lucky" but clean drive and a +30' putt)
#3 - 2 (P3)
#4 - 4 (P5) (some may hit a 3 - Darco was 70' shooting 3)
#5 - 4 (P4) (Avery could be there for the 3, but that hill takes the gimmie away)
#6 - 2 (P3)
#7 - 3 (P4)
#8 - 3 (P4)
#9 - 2 (P3) (I see the line and I'm sure Barry could hit it)
#10 - 3 (P3) (the odd big arm will hit a 2)
#11 - 3 (P3) (Again, I see the line and I'm sure most 1000 could hit it, but there is some iffie-ness up there to mess with you)
#12 - 2 (P3)
#13 - 2 (P3)
#14 - 2 (P3)
#15 - 3 (P3)
#16 - 2 (P3)
#17 - 2 (P3) (I'm giving the advantage to the putter under the big top)
#18 - 3 (P4)

So that could be the card of a top Pro. A 47. This is an "American" World Class course. It's on these courses were you realize just how good these guys are who are rated +1000.

Freakin awesome John.

Phat-e stepped up to #11 and said, "there's not much of a chance that John thinks he can hit this, but yet he sees the shot and we're playing it." John gets it.

When I grow up, I want to be John.


Thanks Geoff, Jeff and I love discussions like that.

I can't say that I feel I'm doing anything special other than having land, equipment, patience and listen to people.
Things are far from perfect but taking the time to cut the right trees as you lengthen holes is worth while in the end.
I appreciate and welcome feed back from people. Lots have contributed. When people are cursing #4 I say you can thank Penton/Svets for that one.
I love that hole now too.

Here's some skinny on tee pads and play for Ettyville to go with your analysis. The course being fresh in people's minds should help.

I plan on having 3 tee pads. Lets say Short (s), Medium (m), Long (L). These tee pads will be in effect for Pelican and OD Ettyville for sure.
The longs will probably not be seen in league play for daylight reasons.

As it pertains to the Pelican I see the play like this:

Best Disc/Scramble - Longs,

Alternating Shot - Longs maybe, Medium probably

Four Disc/ Best Score - Medium

Match Play - Shorts.

I would say that last night was a representation of mostly the shorts. In listing each hole below I will put a (*) beside the tee we played.
I'll also describe where the other tee pads will be in relation.

#1. S- placed along the lawn between #18 basket and # 1 basket. This could be the medium too if I were to shorten up last night's tee a bit
M*-
L- placed up near the corner of the new house. We played that location a few time before the crops came into play. Depending on camping/parking it could go anywhere.

#2. S*-
M- move to the left of ths shorts and back further
L- Keep moving left. probably tight to the bush, move way more.

#3. s*-
m - move back
l - move back even more

#4. s*-
m - move back
l - move back even more
note: basket will move back some in the gap it was last night. I'll clean out some trees.
Long term green will be in the mound just right of the gap. Look for water long as that will also play into #8's drive. smile


#5. s - move up some in line with the gap in the trees
m*-
l - move right and back. I used to have the pad there but with the basket placement on #4 it'll move back even farther.

#6. s- closer somewhere
m*
l- move pad left to create some additional distance. Make #5 green area OB.

#7. s*-
m - move back
l - move back even more

#8. s- move forward but way left. Think between #7 green and #5 tee pad.
I like the shot from the tee last night but maybe there is a easier or another cool shot from over there.
m*-
l- move way back. move a bit left. The big arms would be foolish to try the line right over the soybeans straight at the basket. Some will try. Most will fail. smile
note: the basket will be more into the bush to finish. You can see a nice tree that guards the left side near the basket. You'll have to work that third shot around and in.
#9. s*- move up a bit
m - move up a bit
l* -

#10 s - up and left. end of the soybeans. we'd played that tee to the hydro tower previously
m*
l - move back. way back. I wish I'd planted more soybeans to narrow things and make that drive long or accurate
note: basket will be in the bush. I'll be cleaning out a home back in the bush where the basket was last night.
I'll probably put a combine on the right side of the fairway to block the right side approach.

#11 s* -
m - move out of the forest and left. you might have noticed another tunnel developing on the left of the tee last night. You'll be driving into the bush.
l - just a longer version of the medium tee

#12 s* -
m/l - maybe a bit further back eventually.

#13 s* -
m - left almost against bush. something different.
l - longer back and to the right a bit. close to road.

#14 s* -
m/l - left and in the bush to tee off. more length and hopefully a tunnel out.


#15 s*-
m - move back
l - move back even more

#16 s*-
m - move back
l - move back even more - could move right and have some lines out of the trees in there.

#17 s - move up right
m* - move back
l - move back right
note: pin could change. no auger if we use a basket. I like moving to the right and the slope of the hill and soybeans in play.

#18 s - move up
m*-
l - move back
note: placement is on the premise for 2 wicked shots to get on the green and be putting for eagle.

Now for par. Some might not agree and at the end of the day it's about strokes. Augusta is the perfect white ball course and I'd like to think I'm designing the same for Ettyville.
Par 5's that you can Eagle with good shots. Punishingly long par 4's where an errant shot is almost not recoverable. Makeable par 3's requiring some accuracy that are ace runs. You don't get a 2 you missed an opportunity.

That being said I'd place par for last night from the SHORTS (more or less) at.

#1 - 3
#2 - 4
#3 - 3
#4 - 5
#5 - 5
#6 - 3
#7 - 5
#8 - 4
#9 - 4
#10 - 4
#11 - 4 (easy now but will also be lengthen at the pin eventually)
#12 - 3
#13 - 4
#14- 3
#15 - 4
#16 - 3
#17 - 4
#18 - 5

What's that make 4 par 5's, 8 par 4's, and 6 par 3's. Par 70.
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Jefrey A. Brother
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 09, 2010 1:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

#17

I liked the farm equipment in the way (I don't recall the actions to take if landing in one). Keeping those in play makes it unique - because having a target 10 feet in the air is pretty common place.
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John Pytel
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 09, 2010 1:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jefrey A. Brother wrote:
#17

I liked the farm equipment in the way (I don't recall the actions to take if landing in one). Keeping those in play makes it unique - because having a target 10 feet in the air is pretty common place.


So people don't mind a target that high? I was also thinking of a basket installation. The wagons would be repositioned accordingly to the basket.

The theory about landing in them is they should slide right out farthest away from the basket with the wagon still in the way. The rulling should be that if it doesn't slide out then just retrieve it (knock it out with a broom handle or something) and shoot from where it would slide out. No penalty just safety. The penalty will be in the wagon still obstructing you.
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Jefrey A. Brother
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 09, 2010 2:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

John Pytel wrote:
So people don't mind a target that high? I was also thinking of a basket installation.


I think most people probably don't like it. It's gimmickie/circus, but I'm OK with it, but I would guess I'm in the minority. It's kinda like the yellow ropes at USDGC, which we won't get into. These are things we accept because course designers don't have millions of dollars at their disposal.
Quote:

The wagons would be repositioned accordingly to the basket.

The theory about landing in them is they should slide right out farthest away from the basket with the wagon still in the way. The rulling should be that if it doesn't slide out then just retrieve it (knock it out with a broom handle or something) and shoot from where it would slide out. No penalty just safety. The penalty will be in the wagon still obstructing you.


Awesome. A true bunker.

Speaking of true bunkers, number 18's "OB" in front the basket is a bunker. From out in the feild you must decide if you go for it, or lay-up. In our small money sport we "punish" for ending up in such bunkers/OB with the metre-in-take-a-stroke. When the $$$ starts flowing into our course development (in about 120 years or so) think about what you could use as a bunker to make a player do something "fancy" to get out trouble.
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Last edited by Jefrey A. Brother on Wed Jun 09, 2010 2:36 pm; edited 1 time in total
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John Pytel
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 10, 2010 7:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jefrey A. Brother wrote:
John Pytel wrote:
So people don't mind a target that high? I was also thinking of a basket installation.


I think most people probably don't like it. It's gimmickie/circus, but I'm OK with it, but I would guess I'm in the minority. It's kinda like the yellow ropes at USDGC, which we won't get into. These are things we accept because course designers don't have millions of dollars at their disposal.
Quote:

The wagons would be repositioned accordingly to the basket.

The theory about landing in them is they should slide right out farthest away from the basket with the wagon still in the way. The rulling should be that if it doesn't slide out then just retrieve it (knock it out with a broom handle or something) and shoot from where it would slide out. No penalty just safety. The penalty will be in the wagon still obstructing you.


Awesome. A true bunker.

Speaking of true bunkers, number 18's "OB" in front the basket is a bunker. From out in the feild you must decide if you go for it, or lay-up. In our small money sport we "punish" for ending up in such bunkers/OB with the metre-in-take-a-stroke. When the $$$ starts flowing into our course development (in about 120 years or so) think about what you could use as a bunker to make a player do something "fancy" to get out trouble.


I had an idea for what would be a "fair way" bunker concept. Probably not the first person to thinkg of it but I never did any research on it.

The idea being that if you land in the bunker you have to shoot with one knee on the ground.

A sand bunker/OB is so much easier to "maintain" but doesn't present any" difficulty with the typical stance. I suppose no "run ups" of a "stationary stance good be considered as well.
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Roxie
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Joined: 09 Nov 2005
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Location: Dog River

PostPosted: Thu Jun 10, 2010 8:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

John Pytel wrote:
Jefrey A. Brother wrote:
John Pytel wrote:
So people don't mind a target that high? I was also thinking of a basket installation.


I think most people probably don't like it. It's gimmickie/circus, but I'm OK with it, but I would guess I'm in the minority. It's kinda like the yellow ropes at USDGC, which we won't get into. These are things we accept because course designers don't have millions of dollars at their disposal.
Quote:

The wagons would be repositioned accordingly to the basket.

The theory about landing in them is they should slide right out farthest away from the basket with the wagon still in the way. The rulling should be that if it doesn't slide out then just retrieve it (knock it out with a broom handle or something) and shoot from where it would slide out. No penalty just safety. The penalty will be in the wagon still obstructing you.


Awesome. A true bunker.

Speaking of true bunkers, number 18's "OB" in front the basket is a bunker. From out in the feild you must decide if you go for it, or lay-up. In our small money sport we "punish" for ending up in such bunkers/OB with the metre-in-take-a-stroke. When the $$$ starts flowing into our course development (in about 120 years or so) think about what you could use as a bunker to make a player do something "fancy" to get out trouble.


I had an idea for what would be a "fair way" bunker concept. Probably not the first person to thinkg of it but I never did any research on it.

The idea being that if you land in the bunker you have to shoot with one knee on the ground.

A sand bunker/OB is so much easier to "maintain" but doesn't present any" difficulty with the typical stance. I suppose no "run ups" of a "stationary stance good be considered as well.


I was thinking about this last night too. Particularly at your course. You could put sand bunkers on 5 or 7 where drives may land. You need a good run up on your second shot and if that was in 6-8 inches of sand, it would add that much more difficulty to the hole. Like there not hard enough.
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Jefrey A. Brother
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Location: First tee

PostPosted: Thu Jun 10, 2010 8:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't like the forced stance rules all that much and I don't really like the Bunkr rules either, but I forced players to do it at the the Plaid one year.

Ben and I were talking about the "OB" on 18 and he came up with putting up a 3-4 foot fence (nothing fancy, maybe just a wooden farmers fence) on the basket side of the OB.



With the long grass, the ditch, the trees AND this fence, players could throw from the OB (though it would become a mess and get trampled) and it would involve a "chip" shot (scoober, bounce and roll, spike something-or-rather) or a restriction on follow-thru or stance. Probably cost a stroke without, but a good out could produce something special.

The grass bunkers you have on #5 and 7 are truly wonderful. With a stated rule that there are NO run-ups allowed in the long grass. This was discussed last year for FM and for the small corn crops at ESS (Ettyville Super Spin). 2009 Pre-Round Players Meeting

All that is needed is something that either impedes a throwing motion (long grass, bush, fence) or your run-up/follow-thru (lose sand, river rocks, golf balls, juniper bushes, rasberry bushes, undulating terrain). The problem is these usually cost $$ to create and probably to maintain. Again, when I win the millions look out.
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John Pytel
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 10, 2010 8:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

OB tends to be at my place a spot you're not wanted to shoot from. For many reasons. Safety, crop protection, wet, trampling, etc.

I find grass not to be as big an impedement to throwing as a tree or schrub would be. Grass gets trambled and for most of the year it is short and of no consequence.

Did we mention the stone walls for 18 to line the OB? A nice lip on the fairway side to catch anything rolling.

An elevated wall on the green side and a more flat green.

Shallow water to be in the ditch as the hazzard.

That's the longer term plan. I've got some stone waller connections developing. Really I need a landscape architect plan that would include that detail.

I like the wood fences. They worked well on #12 at the Bigman to mark OB. They're easy enough to get close with a mower and look good on a "farm".
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Paul Bourgeois
ODGC Tuesday Night Coordinator


Joined: 21 Aug 2005
Posts: 1687
Location: Ottawa, Ontario

PostPosted: Thu Jun 10, 2010 8:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Just a note before the official results get posted:

Carl, you win!

... two extra strokes. Your card showed a total of 65, but you scored a 66. Final score will be 68.
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Roxie
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 10, 2010 8:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

CURSE YOU BENNY!
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Jefrey A. Brother
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 10, 2010 8:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I spent years trying to convince Old Man to "corner" some grass triangles with farm fences on some of his open holes (13 comes to mind). Throw some wildflower seeds in there and ignore it FOREVER. A cedar bush in there for some visual f#c%ing and you're golden.

In a perfect world, you would only lose strokes when you leave the park. But the nature of our sport, and with rules like the metre out, we can manipulate our parks to play tougher and punish those that have errant throws.

LNF is chalk full of "OB" which are more like bunkers on a white-ball course. There will be 2010 LNF rules which will illustrate this better.
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Jefrey A. Brother
King Jefrey


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 10, 2010 8:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

John Pytel wrote:
Did we mention the stone walls for 18 to line the OB? A nice lip on the fairway side to catch anything rolling.


Beautiful.

Quote:

An elevated wall on the green side and a more flat green.


Flat green? Why?

Quote:

Shallow water to be in the ditch as the hazzard.


Play were it lies? Sweet.

Quote:

That's the longer term plan. I've got some stone waller connections developing. Really I need a landscape architect plan that would include that detail.


The millions would definitely be paying for a landscape pro to come in.

Quote:

I like the wood fences. They worked well on #12 at the Bigman to mark OB. They're easy enough to get close with a mower and look good on a "farm".


I love the look of the farm fence.
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Paul Bourgeois
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 10, 2010 10:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Adjusted Round Results
TOSS 2010 [6] 08/06/2010 6:30:00 PM
Quarterback 2.3
Conditions: A few clouds.
Temp: 19C
Wind: NW11km/h

16 players participated in this round.
Action from Ettyville Super Spin
RankPlayer NameScoreHandicapAdjusted Score
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
Penton, Geoff
Meldrum, Jeff
McLeod, David
Vallee, Andrew
Doucette, Rob
Svetkoff, Ben
Sivyer, Stacie
Darcovich, Ken
Lariviere, Jeff
Reitlingshoefer, Claus
Fisher, Kyle
Kilpatrick, Shane
Bourgeois, Paul
Visser, Carl
Pytel, John
Atos, Mark
57
59
67
66
70
70
71
65
67
66
71
69
78
66+2
82
95
4.0
5.4
11.1
10.0
13.3
12.8
13.7
6.7
8.6
7.3
11.9
8.9
17.5
6.0
19.9
999.0
53.0
53.6
55.9
56.0
56.7
57.2
57.3
58.3
58.4
58.7
59.1
60.1
60.5
62.0
62.1
999.0


Congratulations, Geoff, Jeff, and David! Your fine rounds earned you $24, $16, and $8 respectively.

This was the final round of the first quarterback challenge of the season. The results:

RankNameRound 1Round 2Round 3Total
A1
A2
A3
A4
A5
B1
B2
B3
B4
B5
C1
C2
C3
C4
Penton, Geoff
Meldrum, Jeff
Darcovich, Ken
Reitlingshoefer, Claus
Visser, Carl
Lariviere, Jeff
Vallee, Andrew
McLeod, David
Fisher, Kyle
Kilpatrick, Shane
Doucette, Rob
Svetkoff, Ben
Bourgeois, Paul
Sivyer, Stacie
50
51
54
56
56
53
55
52
53
58
60
56
61
64
54
59
57
57
58
60
61
64
65
999
66
71
65
74
57
59
65
66
68
67
66
67
71
69
70
70
78
71
161
169
176
179
182
180
182
183
189
999
196
197
204
209


Congratulations, Geoff, Jeff, and Rob! Your rounds earned you first place in your pools, and $17 each.

We'll start a new QB challenge next week at Camp Fortune.
See you there!
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John Pytel
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 10, 2010 10:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Flat green? Why?

Not intentional but more to achieve and elevated green perception on the approach shot. Probably tougher to stick on a long run at the green and mute on a short one.
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OMR
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 10, 2010 10:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

where's my beer?!
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Jefrey A. Brother
King Jefrey


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 10, 2010 11:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

John Pytel wrote:
Flat green? Why?

Not intentional but more to achieve and elevated green perception on the approach shot. Probably tougher to stick on a long run at the green and mute on a short one.


Ah. I was up there practicing before the round and I was starting my putts in the shade of those gorgeous trees. The look I had at the basket with the green falling away made for nervousness. I made a point to get my approach on the lower part of the green. Instead, I put my approach in the OB. No nervousness. thumbsup sarcastic eye roll
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Jefrey A. Brother
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 10, 2010 11:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

OMR wrote:
where's my beer?!


In my fridge. Seriously.
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