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BigBrotherPenton
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 21, 2009 2:20 pm    Post subject: Rule of the Month - 803.09 Out-of-Bounds Reply with quote

803.09 Out-of-Bounds

A. A disc shall be considered out-of-bounds only when it comes to rest and it is clearly and completely surrounded by the out-of-bounds area. A disc thrown in water shall be deemed to be at rest once it is floating or is moving only by the action of the water or the wind on the water. See section 803.03 F. The out-of-bounds line itself is considered out-of --bounds. In order to consider the disc as out-of bounds, there must be reasonable evidence that the disc came to rest within the out-of-bounds area. In the absence of such evidence, the disc will be considered lost and the player will proceed according to rule 803.11B.

B. A player whose disc is considered out-of-bounds shall receive one penalty throw. The player may elect to play the next shot from:
(1) The previous lie as evidenced by the marker disc or, if the marker disc has been moved from an approximate lie, as agreed to by the majority of the group or an official;
or (2) A lie that is up to one meter away from and perpendicular to the point where the disc last crossed into out-of-bounds, as determined by a majority of the group or an official. This holds true even if the direction takes the lie closer to the hole;
or (3) Within the designated Drop Zone, if provided. These options may be limited by the tournament director as a special condition (see 804.01).

C. The Rule of Verticality. The out-of-bounds line represents a vertical plane. Where a player's lie is marked from a particular point within one meter of the out-of-bounds line pursuant to the rules, the one-meter relief may be taken from the particular point upward or downward along
the vertical plane.

D. If the in-bounds status of a disc is uncertain, either a majority of the group or an official shall make the determination. If the thrower moves the disc before a determination has been made, the disc shall be considered out-of-bounds, and he or she shall proceed in accordance with 803.09 B counting all throws made prior to the determination of the in-bounds status of the original lie. If a player other than the thrower moves the disc before a determination has been made, the disc shall be considered in-bounds, and play for the thrower and the mover of the disc shall proceed under the rules of interference, 803.07 B and C.
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BigBrotherPenton
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 21, 2009 2:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Fences as OB lines

Question: There's a hole with a ball field on the right that is lined with a chain-link fence. I threw a righty hyzer off the tee which cleared the fence twenty feet ahead of the tee. On its way toward the hole, it hit the inside of the fence 280 feet up ahead and fell OB. Some players have made the argument that the disc touched fair territory where it struck the fence, either by protruding through the fence or by causing the fence to flex. Do I mark it 20 feet ahead, or 280?

Response: Applicable rules: 803.09

Since 803.09 A states that the “line itself is out-of-bounds: the disc is marked where it was last over in-bounds (20 feet ahead) provided: that the TD has not restricted the OB options on that hole AND that the thrower does not elect to re-tee (with a penalty throw) per 803.09 B.

It is doubtful that the "protrusion" nor the "flexing" arguments is strong enough to overcome the common-sense conclusion that the disc has not passed back over fair ground. If you take a disc and press it to one of the diamond-shaped holes in a chain link fence, you'll find that it does not protrude enough to break the plane on the other side. If the fence is the OB line and it does flex some minimal amount when struck, then the OB line itself has flexed.
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andros
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PostPosted: Tue May 04, 2010 10:45 am    Post subject: Re: Rule of the Month - 803.09 Out-of-Bounds Reply with quote

BigBrotherPenton wrote:
803.09 Out-of-Bounds

A. A disc shall be considered out-of-bounds only when it comes to rest and it is clearly and completely surrounded by the out-of-bounds area. ........The out-of-bounds line itself is considered out-of --bounds. .


This is the part that confuses me, my disc is ob if it is
"clearly and completely surrounded by the out-of-bounds area", however
"The out-of-bounds line itself is considered out-of --bounds."
So if my disc is touching the OB line my disc is OB? (It's not completely surrounded by OB)

Can someone please clarify?
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Paul Bourgeois
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PostPosted: Tue May 04, 2010 11:14 am    Post subject: Re: Rule of the Month - 803.09 Out-of-Bounds Reply with quote

andros wrote:
This is the part that confuses me, my disc is ob if it is
"clearly and completely surrounded by the out-of-bounds area", however
"The out-of-bounds line itself is considered out-of --bounds."
So if my disc is touching the OB line my disc is OB? (It's not completely surrounded by OB)

Can someone please clarify?

Sure.

The line itself is OB. If you say "the curb marks the OB for the road," the curb is considered OB because it is the OB line. If the disc is on the road, and resting up against the curb, it is OB (clearly surrounded).

If the edge of the disc touches the curb, but the rest is on the grassy "in bounds" area (or, indeed, the tire-warn, burnt turf, nothing will ever grow there again surface), the disc is not OB because it is not surrounded by the OB area.

If the disc is teetering over the curb, and part is on the road, and part is on the grass, the shot is not OB either. Part of the disc is in bounds, and so is not clearly surrounded.

This rule (likely) was drafted because people would commonly say stuff like "the hedge is the OB line", and so you would get into this big argument over whether a shot that was inside the hedge was OB. Under this rule, it clearly is, unless a portion of the disc is clearly outside of the hedge, and on the in-bounds side.


Last edited by Paul Bourgeois on Tue May 04, 2010 11:15 am; edited 2 times in total
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Paul Bourgeois
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PostPosted: Tue May 04, 2010 11:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's this OB line rule that requires TDs to be very clear about how they declare their OB.
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andros
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PostPosted: Tue May 04, 2010 11:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks Paul.
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Jefrey A. Brother
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PostPosted: Tue May 04, 2010 11:48 am    Post subject: Re: Rule of the Month - 803.09 Out-of-Bounds Reply with quote

Paul Bourgeois wrote:


This rule (likely) was drafted because people would commonly say stuff like "the hedge is the OB line", and so you would get into this big argument over whether a shot that was inside the hedge was OB. Under this rule, it clearly is, unless a portion of the disc is clearly outside of the hedge, and on the in-bounds side.


The rule was drafted this way because chain link fences were being used as OB lines and the old rule stated that the OB line was IB. Let's think about #3 at LNF. If you tried throwing an ani over the fence but didn't make it, instead you bounced off wrong side of the fence, your disc penetrated the plane of the fence (in the diamond) and therefore came back IB. Your next throw is from there instead of back were it initially went out.

This changed happened in 2006 according to the PDGA Rule Change Timeline.
PDGA Q&A wrote:
2006.12: Fences as OB lines
Question - There's a hole with a ball field on the right that is lined with a chain-link fence. I threw a righty hyzer off the tee which cleared the fence twenty feet ahead of the tee. On its way toward the hole, it hit the inside of the fence 280 feet up ahead and fell OB. Some players have made the argument that the disc touched fair territory where it struck the fence, either by protruding through the fence or by causing the fence to flex. Do I mark it 20 feet ahead, or 280?

Response - Applicable rules: 803.09

Since 803.09 A states that the “line itself is out-of-bounds: the disc is marked where it was last over in-bounds (20 feet ahead) provided: that the TD has not restricted the OB options on that hole AND that the thrower does not elect to re-tee (with a penalty throw) per 803.09 B.

It is doubtful that the "protrusion" nor the "flexing" arguments is strong enough to overcome the common-sense conclusion that the disc has not passed back over fair ground. If you take a disc and press it to one of the diamond-shaped holes in a chain link fence, you'll find that it does not protrude enough to break the plane on the other side. If the fence is the OB line and it does flex some minimal amount when struck, then the OB line itself has flexed.

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andros
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PostPosted: Tue May 04, 2010 11:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

One more thing pertaining to tonights league at the Shire.
You state the following in the pre-round players meeting;
Quote:
The Shire

May 4:

Out of Bounds
The following are OB:
The road;
any roof;
any deck;
any garden or flower bed;
the hedge line; and
the driveway.
If you put your shot in any of these places, play by the rules and either re-throw from the previous lie, or mark 1m in from where it went out. Remember, the OB line is itself OB, so your disc embedded in the hedge is OB.

2m rule: in effect


Some gardens and flower beds at the shire are not in all areas clearly defined as a line and might cause a problem.
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burjwahzeh
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PostPosted: Tue May 04, 2010 12:02 pm    Post subject: Re: Rule of the Month - 803.09 Out-of-Bounds Reply with quote

Jefrey A. Brother wrote:
...
The rule was drafted this way because chain link fences were being used as OB lines and the old rule stated that the OB line was IB. Let's think about #3 at LNF. If you tried throwing an ani over the fence but didn't make it, instead you bounced off wrong side of the fence, your disc penetrated the plane of the fence (in the diamond) and therefore came back IB. Your next throw is from there instead of back were it initially went out.

This changed happened in 2006 according to the PDGA Rule Change Timeline.

And there are still jacka$$es that would argue this is the case even under the "new" rules. Fantastic interpretations of the rules are what brings about these cases. A rules set is nothing without a case book.
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burjwahzeh
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PostPosted: Tue May 04, 2010 12:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

andros wrote:
Some gardens and flower beds at the shire are not in all areas clearly defined as a line and might cause a problem.

Weeds in the garden are not grass. Grass encroaching on the garden is not grass, its a weed.

Hey, twirly, when's the last time you edged your garden?
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andros
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PostPosted: Tue May 04, 2010 12:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Penton should bring his green surveying spraypaint and paint some OB lines. laughing
Worked wonders at Kanata.
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Jefrey A. Brother
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PostPosted: Tue May 04, 2010 12:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

andros wrote:
Penton should bring his green surveying spraypaint and paint some OB lines. laughing
Worked wonders at Kanata.
It's in the MaliBOOO right now. If permission granted...
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Jefrey A. Brother
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PostPosted: Tue May 04, 2010 12:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

On topic with OB, did anyone at the Oonie "leave the park" and have to re-throw?
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Jefrey A. Brother
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PostPosted: Tue May 04, 2010 1:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
The Shire

May 4:

Out of Bounds
The following are OB:
The road;
any roof;
any deck;
any garden or flower bed;
the hedge line; and
the driveway.
If you put your shot in any of these places, play by the rules and either re-throw from the previous lie, or mark 1m in from where it went out. Remember, the OB line is itself OB, so your disc embedded in the hedge is OB.

2m rule: in effect


I'm going to pull a Bourgie here.

What defines the driveway? The rock wall that borders it? Is the rock wall OB? Is the rock wall the OB line? Is the "road" down to the barn part of the driveway?

Just the hedge line, not the evergreen line on the other side? Meaning the neighbourgin pool backyard is IB?

The road. Is the soft shoulder OB? Is is the rocks, or the asphalt?

What about IN the barn?
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Last edited by Jefrey A. Brother on Tue May 04, 2010 1:00 pm; edited 1 time in total
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deuce
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PostPosted: Tue May 04, 2010 1:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm probably used to winter rules, but is the driveway OB on #7 as well? (Not that I intend to be there... Razz)
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Roxie
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PostPosted: Tue May 04, 2010 1:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes, It's a rirer.
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Thumber
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PostPosted: Tue May 04, 2010 1:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Roxie wrote:
Yes, It's a rirer.


LMAO!!
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C-Kyle
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PostPosted: Tue May 04, 2010 8:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jefrey A. Brother wrote:
On topic with OB, did anyone at the Oonie "leave the park" and have to re-throw?

I did....lost my destroyer in the neighbours yard
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Jefrey A. Brother
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 15, 2010 12:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

803.03 Marking the Lie wrote:
A. After each throw, the thrown disc must be left where it came to rest until the lie is established by the placing of a marker. This can be done by placing a mini marker disc on the playing surface between the hole and the disc, directly in line with the hole, on the line of play, touching the thrown disc. A player may instead choose, without touching or repositioning the thrown disc, to use the thrown disc as the marker. The marker may not be moved until the throw is released. A marker inadvertently moved prior to the throw shall be returned to its correct location.

B. A player is only required to mark the lie with a mini marker disc when repositioning the lie under the rules. This includes the following rules: out-of-bounds, disc above the playing surface, lost disc, unplayable lie, relocated for relief, interference, or repositioning the lie within 1 meter of the out-of-bounds line.

C. If the thrown disc comes to rest in-bounds but within one meter of an out-of-bounds line, the lie may be relocated to any point on a one-meter line that extends perpendicularly from the nearest point on the out-of-bounds line, and passes through the center of the thrown disc. This holds true even if the direction takes the lie closer to the hole. See the following sections for other considerations in marking a thrown disc:
(1) Relocated for relief - 803.05 C (2)
(2) Interference - 803.07 A, B
(3) Above the playing surface - 803.08 A
(4) Out-of-Bounds - 803.09 B
(5) Lost Disc- 803.11 B



Note the rule pertaining to discs landing IB, but close to OB.
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C-Kyle
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 15, 2010 6:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

So Kanata #2 for example if you land between the path and the hedge you can shoot from the park side of the path?
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