Ottawa Disc Golf Club

Reply to topic ODGC Forums Forum Index -> Disc Golf Rules & Course Safety -> Rule of the Week 5 - 803.07 Interference Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5  Next
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
deuce
Big-Arm


Joined: 13 Aug 2009
Posts: 902

PostPosted: Wed Apr 07, 2010 12:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

But if I'm the only one who observes it and I'm not an official, I could admit that I moved the disc, but based on how the rule is written, I wouldn't be given the two stroke penalty.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Jefrey A. Brother
King Jefrey


Joined: 05 Feb 2010
Posts: 10042
Location: First tee

PostPosted: Wed Apr 07, 2010 12:10 pm    Post subject: Re: Rule of the Week 5 - 803.07 Interference Reply with quote

deuce wrote:
BigBrotherPenton wrote:
803.07 Interference

C. Any player who consciously alters the course of a thrown disc, or consciously moves or obscures another player's thrown disc at rest or a marker disc, other than by the action of a competitively thrown disc or in the process of identification, shall receive two penalty throws, without a warning, if observed by any two players or an official.


I've noticed this clause in a number of the rules. Why does it need to be observed by two players or an official to be a penalty? If I accidentally kick Carl's disc in the water (accident, honest...) it should be a penalty regardless of who sees it.
If it's an accident, then it's not a penalty. "Consciously" is the golden word.

Quote:

I can see how this can be used for arguments between thrower and observers, but that should be handled outside of specific rules. What am I missing?
That the sport is full of cheaters, that both understand, misunderstand, and ignore the rules. You'll get those that call "regional rules" that are urban-myth-rules. I've heard some doozies.
_________________
Boyle says BOOM!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Jefrey A. Brother
King Jefrey


Joined: 05 Feb 2010
Posts: 10042
Location: First tee

PostPosted: Wed Apr 07, 2010 12:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

deuce wrote:
But if I'm the only one who observes it and I'm not an official, I could admit that I moved the disc, but based on how the rule is written, I wouldn't be given the two stroke penalty.


That's interesting. I've called myself on a "practice throw" (I accidently threw my disc backwards trying to flick mud off it). This wouldn't be a penalty today though.

Could you call yourself on a foot fault to save a crappy throw? How does this work in other situations.

Good question.
_________________
Boyle says BOOM!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
deuce
Big-Arm


Joined: 13 Aug 2009
Posts: 902

PostPosted: Wed Apr 07, 2010 12:19 pm    Post subject: Re: Rule of the Week 5 - 803.07 Interference Reply with quote

Jefrey A. Brother wrote:
deuce wrote:
BigBrotherPenton wrote:
803.07 Interference

C. Any player who consciously alters the course of a thrown disc, or consciously moves or obscures another player's thrown disc at rest or a marker disc, other than by the action of a competitively thrown disc or in the process of identification, shall receive two penalty throws, without a warning, if observed by any two players or an official.


I've noticed this clause in a number of the rules. Why does it need to be observed by two players or an official to be a penalty? If I accidentally kick Carl's disc in the water (accident, honest...) it should be a penalty regardless of who sees it.
If it's an accident, then it's not a penalty. "Consciously" is the golden word.

Quote:

I can see how this can be used for arguments between thrower and observers, but that should be handled outside of specific rules. What am I missing?
That the sport is full of cheaters, that both understand, misunderstand, and ignore the rules. You'll get those that call "regional rules" that are urban-myth-rules. I've heard some doozies.


Ok, I see. Missed the "consciously" part, although I'm not convinced it should really matter for this rule.

I bet. I tend to correlate PDGA rules to USGA and while I'm not 100% versed on USGA rules, I doubt you'll find any clauses around someone observing the incident for it to result in a penalty. It's assumed that you will be honest and admit your mistake. I guess this assumption is where things break down. smile
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
deuce
Big-Arm


Joined: 13 Aug 2009
Posts: 902

PostPosted: Wed Apr 07, 2010 12:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jefrey A. Brother wrote:
deuce wrote:
But if I'm the only one who observes it and I'm not an official, I could admit that I moved the disc, but based on how the rule is written, I wouldn't be given the two stroke penalty.


That's interesting. I've called myself on a "practice throw" (I accidently threw my disc backwards trying to flick mud off it). This wouldn't be a penalty today though.

Could you call yourself on a foot fault to save a crappy throw? How does this work in other situations.

Good question.


803.01 wrote:

B. Practice Throws. A player who throws a practice throw or an extra throw with any disc any time after the start of his or her round and prior to his or her finishing the last hole of the round (except for throws that must be re-thrown in accordance with the rules, provisional throws made pursuant to 803.01 C and 803.01 D (3), or throws during a suspension or postponement of play) shall receive one penalty throw. The practice throw or extra throw must be observed by any two players or an official.


If no one else observed your "practice throw", it's not a penalty.

I've always wondered if you could call yourself on a foot fault. The rule doesn't really suggest that you can't.

803.04 F wrote:
The call may be made by any member of the group or an official.


The thrower is certainly a member of the group, you just need someone else to second the call.

Also found this from http://www.pdga.com/history-of-rules-story although I can't find anything around this in the actual rules.

"One current issue that required a rules waiver for the USDGC was already solved very simply in the 1990 rule book. The savvy tour players have heard about or used what's known as a free "mulligan" when someone slips on the tee pad and knows they've yanked their drive. They can call a foot fault (even when it's not) and there's a reasonable chance they'll get a "second" from someone in the group. They simply get a warning and a re-tee just like a mulligan. However, the foot fault rule in the 1990 rule book did not allow a player to call a foot fault on their own throw but were allowed to second a foot fault call first made by another player in the group; thus, no free mulligan possibility. The Rules Committee may want to consider that in the next update."


Last edited by deuce on Wed Apr 07, 2010 1:02 pm; edited 1 time in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
deuce
Big-Arm


Joined: 13 Aug 2009
Posts: 902

PostPosted: Wed Apr 07, 2010 1:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

After looking at the rule changes, the "besides the thrower" exception was added in the 1990 rule book, but then removed in the 1997 rule book.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Jefrey A. Brother
King Jefrey


Joined: 05 Feb 2010
Posts: 10042
Location: First tee

PostPosted: Wed Apr 07, 2010 1:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

deuce wrote:
803.01 wrote:
]
B. Practice Throws. A player who throws a practice throw or an extra throw with any disc any time after the start of his or her round and prior to his or her finishing the last hole of the round (except for throws that must be re-thrown in accordance with the rules, provisional throws made pursuant to 803.01 C and 803.01 D (3), or throws during a suspension or postponement of play) shall receive one penalty throw. The practice throw or extra throw must be observed by any two players or an official.


If no one else observed your "practice throw", it's not a penalty.



Then I'd be cheating to not call it.
_________________
Boyle says BOOM!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Brother Andre
Sultan of Swill


Joined: 26 Jul 2000
Posts: 3276
Location: room 207

PostPosted: Wed Apr 07, 2010 1:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I took a penalty stroke at the Big Man last year at The Shire because Thumber caught me in a brain fart as I threw a last putt after the warning horn went off.

He caught it, said something to me, I acknowledged (sheepishly, of course) and added the circle to my card immediately. It sucks but them's the rules.

Brother
_________________
I used to rock and roll every night and party every day. Then it was every other day. Now I'm lucky to find half an hour each week in which to get funky...
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Jefrey A. Brother
King Jefrey


Joined: 05 Feb 2010
Posts: 10042
Location: First tee

PostPosted: Wed Apr 07, 2010 1:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Brother Andre wrote:
I took a penalty stroke at the Big Man last year at The Shire because Thumber caught me in a brain fart as I threw a last putt after the warning horn went off.

He caught it, said something to me, I acknowledged (sheepishly, of course) and added the circle to my card immediately. It sucks but them's the rules.

Brother


That's too bad, because:

Quote:
804.02 Beginning Play

A. Shotgun Starts (rounds where several groups start simultaneously): At a scheduled time, scorecard(s) shall be distributed to the player listed first on each hole. After the cards have been distributed, groups shall be given adequate time to reach their assigned teeing areas. A loud noisemaker, such as an air horn, shall be used to indicate that there are two minutes remaining until tee off. This signal shall be a series of short blasts. At this time, players are to end practice and all practice shots and move promptly to their teeing areas. A throw by a player between the two minute signal and the start of the round shall receive a warning if observed by two or more players or an official. After being warned, subsequent throws by the player during this period, if observed by two or more players or an official, shall result in one penalty throw added to the player's score, regardless of the number of throws. An extended blast of the noisemaker begins the round and signals the scorekeepers to call the throwing orders. If a player is not present to throw when it is his or her turn, the scorekeeper shall allow 30 seconds. If the player has not thrown after the 30 seconds has elapsed, a score of par plus four is to be entered for that hole. This procedure continues on any subsequent holes for which a player is absent. No holes shall be replayed. If a complete round is missed, or if a player does not finish a round, the player may, at the discretion of the director, be disqualified.


Though, now I can't find this rule on the PDGA website - Competition Manual.
_________________
Boyle says BOOM!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Brother Andre
Sultan of Swill


Joined: 26 Jul 2000
Posts: 3276
Location: room 207

PostPosted: Wed Apr 07, 2010 1:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

...not like it cost me a title or anything...
_________________
I used to rock and roll every night and party every day. Then it was every other day. Now I'm lucky to find half an hour each week in which to get funky...
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
deuce
Big-Arm


Joined: 13 Aug 2009
Posts: 902

PostPosted: Wed Apr 07, 2010 1:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

http://www.pdga.com/rules/1-5-practice-rounds-and-tee-times
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Jefrey A. Brother
King Jefrey


Joined: 05 Feb 2010
Posts: 10042
Location: First tee

PostPosted: Wed Apr 07, 2010 1:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jefrey A. Brother wrote:

Though, now I can't find this rule on the PDGA website - Competition Manual.


Found it.

http://www.pdga.com/rules/1-5-practice-rounds-and-tee-times

I was looking in:

http://www.pdga.com/files/documents/08CompetitionManual.pdf
_________________
Boyle says BOOM!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Jefrey A. Brother
King Jefrey


Joined: 05 Feb 2010
Posts: 10042
Location: First tee

PostPosted: Wed Apr 07, 2010 1:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Brother Andre wrote:
...not like it cost me a title or anything...


No. You're right. But it started your day off on the wrong foot. Knowing the rules helps you.
_________________
Boyle says BOOM!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
burjwahzeh
Overflow Overlord


Joined: 13 Dec 2005
Posts: 4460
Location: Somewhere where my mind is not.

PostPosted: Wed Apr 07, 2010 9:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

All this talk about two or more players is talking about the hokiest part of the rules of disc golf.

They've been written as some sort of training tool for new players. They have no crispness to them. They aren't exact because they make too many exceptions.

Why are you allowed a foot fault before it costs you a stroke?

Why do you have to "get caught"?

Where's the honour in the game? Um, gee, I'm missing it. Not in 802.01. Hmmmm.

In a game that is built on honour,
If I realize that I have broken a rule, I can call it.
I don't need someone to see it.
"Guys, I made a mistake. This is what I just did."

As a means of realizing the honour of the game, I demand that I call a foot fault on myself if I commit one. And I will accept every penalty throw that goes with that responsibility.

That is the game of honour.

Where the rules are missing the point, is that the first time I do it, I get a do-over.
A do-over?
WTF is that all about?

A do-over should never be allowed!

But it is.

When the rules were being written back in the '60's, you know they had a look at ball golf rules, got in about four paragraphs, and said, "pfffft. No way, dude!"

So they looked around, and tried to be formal, and thinking about foot faults, they said, "pffffft. Whoa. Look how many people don't pay attention to their feet. We'll scare them off if we make a huge deal of that."

Amateurs commit foot faults all the time, and this is supposed to be a "its okay to be a little bit casual about things like foot faults and "falling putts". Sometimes we forget we're supposed to be playing by the rules.

Except you never should.

And you know what's crazy? As soon as you start playing "by the rules", you stop frolfing and start playing the real game. It's much more exciting than frolf.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
deuce
Big-Arm


Joined: 13 Aug 2009
Posts: 902

PostPosted: Wed Apr 07, 2010 10:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

burjwahzeh wrote:
All this talk about two or more players is talking about the hokiest part of the rules of disc golf.

They've been written as some sort of training tool for new players. They have no crispness to them. They aren't exact because they make too many exceptions.

Why are you allowed a foot fault before it costs you a stroke?

Why do you have to "get caught"?

Where's the honour in the game? Um, gee, I'm missing it. Not in 802.01. Hmmmm.

In a game that is built on honour,
If I realize that I have broken a rule, I can call it.
I don't need someone to see it.
"Guys, I made a mistake. This is what I just did."

As a means of realizing the honour of the game, I demand that I call a foot fault on myself if I commit one. And I will accept every penalty throw that goes with that responsibility.

That is the game of honour.

Where the rules are missing the point, is that the first time I do it, I get a do-over.
A do-over?
WTF is that all about?

A do-over should never be allowed!

But it is.

When the rules were being written back in the '60's, you know they had a look at ball golf rules, got in about four paragraphs, and said, "pfffft. No way, dude!"

So they looked around, and tried to be formal, and thinking about foot faults, they said, "pffffft. Whoa. Look how many people don't pay attention to their feet. We'll scare them off if we make a huge deal of that."

Amateurs commit foot faults all the time, and this is supposed to be a "its okay to be a little bit casual about things like foot faults and "falling putts". Sometimes we forget we're supposed to be playing by the rules.

Except you never should.

And you know what's crazy? As soon as you start playing "by the rules", you stop frolfing and start playing the real game. It's much more exciting than frolf.


Had the same thoughts when I first read that rule. In full agreement.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
C-Kyle
Spin Doctor


Joined: 07 May 2009
Posts: 1217

PostPosted: Thu Apr 08, 2010 6:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's points like that that makes me wanna be a better disc golfer as well as know the rules better. Poeple need to be informed when new, reminded when learning and punished when seasoned. I can see why there is a free shot after a foot fault. I understand it is very hard to hit such a small mark. I don't agree that this should be the case though. Every rule has a penalty in ball golf and disc golf is not quite so unforgiving. Everybody should strive to be a better golfer and call everything. Use a marker instead of flipping discs as well, even in the most casual round. It makes you better and it trains you to do it every time. Just my thoughts!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Roxie
Plaid Jacket Champion


Joined: 09 Nov 2005
Posts: 6929
Location: Dog River

PostPosted: Thu Apr 08, 2010 8:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The Force is strong in this one.
_________________
If you can't win the event in regulation, try, try, try again.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Jefrey A. Brother
King Jefrey


Joined: 05 Feb 2010
Posts: 10042
Location: First tee

PostPosted: Thu Apr 08, 2010 8:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Asked Conrad:
Quote:
Can I call myself on a rule violation without the backing of a second person or official?


Conrad wrote back:
Quote:
It depends on the call, but, generally no. The most common scenario in which that appears is calling oneself for a stance violation immediately after a horriblethrow, hoping to get a warning and a rethrow. -Conrad

_________________
Boyle says BOOM!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Jefrey A. Brother
King Jefrey


Joined: 05 Feb 2010
Posts: 10042
Location: First tee

PostPosted: Sun Nov 21, 2010 5:34 pm    Post subject: Re: Rule of the Week 5 - 803.07 Interference Reply with quote

BigBrotherPenton wrote:
803.07 Interference

A. A thrown disc that hits another player, spectator, or animal shall be played where it comes to rest. A thrown disc that is intentionally deflected or was caught and moved shall be marked as close as possible to the point of contact, as determined by a majority of the group or an official. Alternatively, for intentional interference only, the thrower has the option of taking a re-throw. Players shall not stand or leave their equipment where interference with the flight or path of a disc could easily occur. The away player may require other players to mark their lies or move their equipment before making a throw if the player believes that either could interfere with his or her throw.

B. If a disc at rest on the playing surface or supported by the target is moved, the disc shall be replaced as close as possible to its original location, as determined by a majority of the group or an official. If a marker disc is moved, the marker disc shall be replaced as close as possible to its original location, as determined by a majority of the group or an official. (If the two meter penalty is in effect See also 803.08 C and D for movement of a disc above the playing surface.)

C. Any player who consciously alters the course of a thrown disc, or consciously moves or obscures another player's thrown disc at rest or a marker disc, other than by the action of a competitively thrown disc or in the process of identification, shall receive two penalty throws, without a warning, if observed by any two players or an official.

_________________
Boyle says BOOM!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Roxie
Plaid Jacket Champion


Joined: 09 Nov 2005
Posts: 6929
Location: Dog River

PostPosted: Mon Nov 22, 2010 9:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

big grin
_________________
If you can't win the event in regulation, try, try, try again.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    ODGC Forums Forum Index -> Disc Golf Rules & Course Safety All times are GMT - 5 Hours
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5  Next
Page 2 of 5

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum


Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group
RSS Feed for Latest Posts