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Thumber
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 16, 2009 2:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If you don't calm down you're going to have a stroke Paulie.

Those were some big CAPS.

We're just a little slow and trying to understand how to apply this most technical of rules.

Now if I flip my disc over and it knocks down the grass in front, would that be a stroke? (Totally joking) cool
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Rolly
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 16, 2009 2:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Roxie wrote:
I guess marking your disc is a stroke too, because you've moved the grass


LMAO, brilliant.
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Rolly
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 16, 2009 2:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

We need the people who wrote the Canadian electrical code to write the rules of DG. laughing
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burjwahzeh
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 16, 2009 2:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

BigBrotherPenton wrote:
But it brings up a good point with regard to long grass, a la FM. Flatting the grass in front of your lie would be in defiance to this rule.

Absolutely.

So is flattening out an area so that you can take a big run up and not trip on something.

Now, you are allowed to move things according to (C) above, but you are never allowed to intentionally do anything to vegetation defined as an obstacle. This can loosely be defined as anything you wouldn't be expected to routinely walk on during a round.
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Roxie
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 16, 2009 2:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Good discussion. Can you not move crap away from behind your lie to make it safe. Branch, rock etc...
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burjwahzeh
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 16, 2009 2:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rolly wrote:
Roxie wrote:
I guess marking your disc is a stroke too, because you've moved the grass


LMAO, brilliant.

Actually, no, it isn't brilliant, its a good question with answers that can be found elsewhere in the rules. It has no bearing on this arguement.
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Rolly
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 16, 2009 2:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Roxie wrote:
Good discussion. Can you not move crap away from behind your lie to make it safe. Branch, rock etc...


if its not attached to anything living I believe. If its alive its off limits.


Last edited by Rolly on Thu Apr 16, 2009 2:30 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Rolly
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 16, 2009 2:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

burjwahzeh wrote:
Rolly wrote:
Roxie wrote:
I guess marking your disc is a stroke too, because you've moved the grass


LMAO, brilliant.

Actually, no, it isn't brilliant, its a good question with answers that can be found elsewhere in the rules. It has no bearing on this arguement.


I was complementing his sense of humour.
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Thumber
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 16, 2009 2:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Roxie's got a good question there. Can i move a stick or rock if its in the way, but not in front of the lie?
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Roxie
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 16, 2009 2:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes, see part three of the rule.
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Thumber
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 16, 2009 2:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Oh...this comes back to me being slow you see.
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burjwahzeh
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 16, 2009 2:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thumber wrote:
If you don't calm down you're going to have a stroke Paulie.

Those were some big CAPS.

We're just a little slow and trying to understand how to apply this most technical of rules.

Now if I flip my disc over and it knocks down the grass in front, would that be a stroke? (Totally joking) cool

The point doesn't seem to be getting across, and it is the most fundamental aspect of the game. Thus the big caps.

The only thing that's going to give me a stroke is the ongoing defiance of the logic behind this penultimate of rules of the game, and that somehow because something is close to your lie, the rule shouldn't apply. The rules don't contain provisions for being nice, just for being fair. There is no rule that says you can break the rules, even if it would be nice to do so.

It is NEVER fair to alter anything between your lie and the target, except as defined by (c) above. It may be nice for the guy making the throw, but it is never fair.

Fair, by the way, is looking for a disc from the pad and forward, not the other way around.

And for the record, your stance is allowed to touch things (minimally), but your stance, by definition and necessity of the rules, is never between the lie and the basket. Only your follow through may touch things there.
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Thumber
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 16, 2009 2:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

i get the point you are making Paul. The biggest confusion for me was when the lie is actually established.

I agree 100% you shouldn't alter anything between the lie and the basket, once the lie is established. I was just confused what happens when you step down a bit of grass walking in circles looking for the disc.
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BigBrotherPenton
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 16, 2009 2:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

As the starter of this discussion, I have sent a message to the PDGA Rules Committee for their final say in the matter. Stay tuned. These guys usually take less than 24 hours to reply.
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burjwahzeh
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 16, 2009 2:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rolly wrote:
Roxie wrote:
Good discussion. Can you not move crap away from behind your lie to make it safe. Branch, rock etc...


if its not attached to anything living I believe. If its alive its off limits.

(C) above allows you to move it if it could have become an obstacle during play.

Very carefully read C, and in particular 803.05 (C) (1), (2), and (3). All instances are covered there. (1) allows you to move a player's disc bag, or open a gate IN FRONT OF YOU if it became a factor during play (i.e. the gate is supposed to be opened, but one of the clowns in the group ahead of you closed it to make your shot more difficult, or perhaps it blew shut in a high wind). (2) allows you to move things in your stance unless they extend in front of you. It they do, you can move your shot backwards to avoid it, but it must be a casual obstacle to apply (Life or lack of it isn't necessary. You are able to move rocks and twigs and leaves, kick your feet, what have you. You aren't allowed to knock over a dead tree, for example. These aren't casual obstacles). Someone parking a car in the middle of a fareway is a casual obstacle that you could back up from if it was in the way of your stance according to (2).
(3) allows you to move stuff behind your lie, but again, only debris in the form of twigs, leaves, rocks, etc, or someone's golf bag, blah, blah.
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burjwahzeh
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 16, 2009 3:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

And to drive the point home, a branch no longer connected to a tree can not be moved if it is in front of you, unless you know it fell during the round. Good luck with that on anything but a very windy day.
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BigBrotherPenton
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 16, 2009 3:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Casual Obstacles: A player may obtain relief only from the following obstacles: casual water, loose leaves or debris, broken branches no longer connected to a tree, motor vehicles, harmful insects or animals, players' equipment, spectators, or any item or area specifically designated by the director before the round.

And this is very interesting:

(2) Casual obstacles to stance or throwing motion: The player must first attempt to remove the obstacle unless a portion of the obstacle is also between the lie and the hole. If it is impractical to move the obstacle, or if a portion of the obstacle is also between the lie and the hole, the player's lie may be relocated to the nearest lie which is no closer to the hole; is on the line of play; and is not more than five meters from the original lie, as agreed to by a majority of the group or an official (unless greater casual relief is announced by the director).

So if there's a tree in the way of your throwing motion...(and of course is not front of your lie)
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surge
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 16, 2009 3:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

So if a follow through will rap one's hand on a tree trunk they can move?
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BigBrotherPenton
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 16, 2009 3:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

surge wrote:
So if a follow through will rap one's hand on a tree trunk they can move?


I guess. Only, of course, if the trunk is not in front of the lie.
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Rolly
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 16, 2009 5:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

a tree trunk does not qualify as a casual object.
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