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BigBrotherPenton
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 10, 2009 7:14 pm    Post subject: Rule of the Week 1 - 803.05 Obstacles and Relief Reply with quote

803.05 Obstacles and Relief

A. Obstacles to a Stance or Throwing Motion: Players must choose a stance which results in the least movement of any part of any obstacle except as allowed for casual obstacles by 803.05 C. (Obstacle: Any feature of the course that may impede any aspect of play.) No relief is granted from park equipment (such as signs, trash cans, picnic tables, etc.) as they are considered part of the course. Once a legal stance is taken, a player may not move an obstacle (or hold it back or bend it) in order to make room for a throwing motion. It is legal for a player's throwing motion to make incidental movement of an obstacle.

B. Obstacles Between the Lie and Hole: A player may not move, alter, bend, break, or hold back any
part of any obstacle, including casual obstacles, between the lie and the hole,
with one exception: A player may move obstacles between the lie and the hole that became a factor during the round, such as
spectators, players' equipment, open gates, or branches that fell during the round. Where it is
not known if an obstacle has become a factor during a round, it shall not be moved. It is legal
for a player's throwing motion to make incidental movement of an obstacle.

C. Casual Obstacles: A player may obtain relief only from the following obstacles: casual
water, loose leaves or debris, broken branches no longer connected to a tree, motor vehicles,
harmful insects or animals, players' equipment, spectators, or any item or area specifically
designated by the director before the round. Obstacles may not be moved if any part of the obstacle is between the lie and the hole. The type of relief a player may obtain is based on the location of the obstacle and is limited as follows:
(1) Casual obstacles between the lie and the hole: A player may move obstacles which became a factor during the round as described by 803.05 B.

(2) Casual obstacles to stance or throwing motion: The player must first attempt to remove the
obstacle unless a portion of the obstacle is also between the lie and the hole. If it is impractical to move the obstacle, or if a portion of the obstacle is also between the lie and the hole, the player's lie may be relocated to the nearest lie which is
no closer to the hole; is on the line of play; and is not more than five meters from the original
lie, as agreed to by a majority of the group or an official (unless greater casual relief is
announced by the director). Alternatively, the player may declare an unplayable lie and proceed in
accordance with 803.06.

(3) Casual obstacles to a run-up: The player may move the obstacle provided no part of the obstacle is between the lie and the hole.. No other relief is provided.

D. In situations where it is unclear if an object may be moved or other relief obtained, it
shall be determined by a majority of the group or an official.

E. A player shall receive one penalty throw, without a warning, for violation of an obstacle or
relief rule.

F. A player who purposely damages anything on the course shall receive two penalty
throws, without a warning, if observed by two or more players of the group or an official. The
player may also be disqualified from the tournament, in accordance with section 804.05 A (2)
.


Last edited by BigBrotherPenton on Wed May 13, 2009 8:37 am; edited 1 time in total
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BigBrotherPenton
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 14, 2009 8:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

If it is impractical to move the obstacle, or if a portion of the obstacle is also between the lie and the hole, the player's lie may be relocated to the nearest lie which is
no closer to the hole; is on the line of play; and is not more than five meters from the original
lie,
as agreed to by a majority of the group or an official
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burjwahzeh
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 15, 2009 9:53 am    Post subject: Re: Rule of the Week 1 - Obstacles and Relief Reply with quote

BigBrotherPenton wrote:
A player may not move, alter, bend, break, or hold back any
part of any obstacle, including casual obstacles, between the lie and the hole,
with one exception: A player may move obstacles between the lie and the hole that became a factor during the round, such as
spectators, players' equipment, open gates, or branches that fell during the round.

A quick comment on this:

I've seen players at tournaments move long grass out of the way before throwing. That's illegal. You get penalized. That also includes touching leaves or twigs or branches with a "warm up throw" or pre-shot routine. If you touch it, you are in violation of the rule, and you must be penalized.

I've also seen players at tournaments approach a disc that they threw into the woods from the direction of the basket towards their expected lie. If you so much as disturb a single leaf between your lie and the target, you are in violation of the rule. Regardless of how altruistic your intentions were, you have broken the rules. Failure to add strokes is cheating.

Bottom line: the rule is simple, but following the rule isn't easy. Treat everything between the disc and the basket as though it were fine crystal, and don't do anything that may result in your disturbing it.
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burjwahzeh
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 16, 2009 10:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Routine violation of this rule is probably one of the most significant factors in preventing local disc golfers from improving their disc golf game.

Throwing a shot into "the woods" is viewed as an inconvenience. The rules make is a complete disaster in this regard, but seldom is the rule enforced or taken seriously.

If you loose your balance, fall forward, and steady yourself on a small tree on the line of play, causing it to move at all before you throw, YOU MUST TAKE A STROKE.

Do you think this sounds harsh? It isn't at all.

The only time you'll find yourself in a situation like this is if you've gacked a shot into the woods or something. Your shot was errant, and now you are in a hazard.

Consider the rules in whiteball surrounding landing in a bunker. You aren't allowed to test the sand in any way. You aren't allowed to move anything in relation to your ball in any way. You can't even allow your club to so much as touch a grain of sand before you make your swing. Why? Because sand is considered the ultimate playable hazard in whiteball. In disc golf, the ultimate playable hazard is everything between your lie and the target. Don't touch any of it until you are making your shot.
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julz
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 16, 2009 10:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

what happens when you loose your disc in the woods and you happen to find it by walking towards it from the direction of the basket?
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burjwahzeh
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 16, 2009 10:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

julz wrote:
what happens when you loose your disc in the woods and you happen to find it by walking towards it from the direction of the basket?

Did you move anything between it and the basket?

It's a stroke if you did. Never approach it from the basket.
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Thumber
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 16, 2009 10:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

This is where I think a bit of discretion needs to be used. Can the card choose not to enforce the rule in order to allow the player to navigate to their disc from the basket side?
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julz
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 16, 2009 10:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

you know what I mean though, eh? It's in the woods somewhere and you have no clue where, just a general idea. So, if you have to walk through thick bush, etc, that counts as a stroke if you move anything?

People are never going to want to look for their disc. or their going to always approach from a point way behind their disc just in case. would this waste more time in the end?
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Roxie
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 16, 2009 10:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I guess marking your disc is a stroke too, because you've moved the grass
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burjwahzeh
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 16, 2009 11:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Roxie wrote:
I guess marking your disc is a stroke too, because you've moved the grass

No. The front of your marker defines the new, slightly forward lie. Anything you touch with the marker is no longer between the lie and the basket.
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burjwahzeh
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 16, 2009 11:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thumber wrote:
This is where I think a bit of discretion needs to be used. Can the card choose not to enforce the rule in order to allow the player to navigate to their disc from the basket side?


NO!

Everything forward of the lie is sacrisanct! You can't bend the rules for convenience. That's cheating. Colluding to do so with the rest of the card should get everyone DQ'd as well.
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Thumber
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 16, 2009 11:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

So you are saying that if i walk in to the rhubarb looking for an errant shot, and I'm not sure where it is, i should start from the tee and search forward so I don't accidentally pass my lie? That makes sense how?

Sometimes you have no choice but to walk in circles a bit. I agree in principle with the rule, but i think all this needs to be viewed with some discretion. You're analogy to a sand trap doesn't hold for me either. that is a very specific trap rule.

A better comparison would be your ball in the woods just off the fairway.
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Chuck Shick
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 16, 2009 11:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

If you don't know where your disc is then you don't have a lie yet.

Anything you move (i.e. while walking, looking and brushing things out of the way to find your disc) is done before the lie is established.
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Thumber
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 16, 2009 11:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Chuck Shick wrote:
If you don't know where your disc is then you don't have a lie yet.

Anything you move (i.e. while walking, looking and brushing things out of the way to find your disc) is done before the lie is established.


Oh I see. That actually makes sense.
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julz
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 16, 2009 11:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ok, totally makes sense now.

So as soon as you spot your disc you make sure to get behind it in a way that ensures you don't move or touch anything?
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BigBrotherPenton
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 16, 2009 12:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Chuck Shick wrote:
If you don't know where your disc is then you don't have a lie yet.

Anything you move (i.e. while walking, looking and brushing things out of the way to find your disc) is done before the lie is established.


thumbsup

This is why you should help your card mates find discs so you can point out the disc fast and not be in these situations. This rule is written for those who know were their disc is in the woods, can see it, and take the route that breaks any branches in their way to the basket.

Obstacle: Any feature of the course that may impede any aspect of play.

F . Rule of Fairness. If any point in dispute is not covered by the rules, the decision shall be made in
accordance with fairness. Often a logical extension of the closest existing rule or the
principles embodied in these rules will provide guidance for determining fairness.
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BigBrotherPenton
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 16, 2009 12:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Roxie wrote:
I guess marking your disc is a stroke too, because you've moved the grass


Grass isn't an obstacle. Unless it's long.

Something also to think about (and will be the focus of next weeks Rule discussion) comes from 803.04 Stance, Subsequent to Teeing Off

D. A player must choose the stance that will result in the least movement of any part of any obstacle that is a permanent or integral part of the course.

So, no, you can't back into your disc and push back tree branches, or come up underneath a tree limb to get into your ready stance.
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Roxie
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 16, 2009 1:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I forgot that your lie is now your marker.
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BigBrotherPenton
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 16, 2009 1:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

But it brings up a good point with regard to long grass, a la FM. Flatting the grass in front of your lie would be in defiance to this rule.
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burjwahzeh
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 16, 2009 1:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

So is plunging headlong into the woods from the direction of the basket in order to find you disc. If you're doing it to maximize your chances of a clear shot once you find your disc, you are cheating, and I don't care if that's the easiest way to get to it either.

There is no rule that says a player may take the easiest path to their disc. There is a rule that says you must not disturb anything between it and the basket. There is no room for discretion in this regard. There is no room for the people on your card to have bleeding hearts for someone in the woods, either.

Now if you think that's unfair, lets hit rewind for a second. Why is your shot in the shule anyways? Because you gacked it. Your shot was sh!t, and so will your lie be sh!t. Stop throwing sh!t, and you won't have to deal with it.

The analogy to sand is perfect, by the way, because you are not allowed to touch your club to the sand until you are making your shot. In disc golf, if you are in the woods, or in the trees, you are not allowed to touch anything in front of you unless it is a follow-through of your throw. "Practice Throws" or pre-shot routines do not allow you to touch things in front of you, just as you are not allowed to "test" the sand on a golf course.

Why does this seem so bizarre to people? YOU'RE IN A HAZARD IF YOU'RE IN THE WOODS! YOU CAN'T TREAT IT LIKE IT ISN'T THERE! Trees and other obstacles are what makes disc golf a sport. They are more than a minor inconvenience that you may just brush aside.

This is an underlining of the most important rule in disc golf: Everything between you and the target is something to be respected and treated as an obstacle. Move it, and you've altered the course, whether you intended to or not. Altering the course during a round is against the rules. To do it intentionally is cheating. To do it unintentionally will get you a stroke for being careless.


Last edited by burjwahzeh on Thu Apr 16, 2009 2:10 pm; edited 2 times in total
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