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BigBrotherPenton
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 10, 2006 8:52 pm    Post subject: Profession and Amateur Reply with quote

Can someone direct me to the rule on Professional and Amateurs, and what they can accept and what they can't at tournaments?
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DiscDiggler
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 10, 2006 9:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If you accept cash in a PDGA tournament you are pro. If you are a pro with a rating below 955 you can play Advanced, but you are still a pro. Pros can't compete in Am Majors.


Skins seem to count towards cashing at an event. However Ace Pools do not.... Confused
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BigBrotherPenton
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 10, 2006 9:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

What about CTPs?
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BigBrotherPenton
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 10, 2006 9:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

And where is this written?
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DiscDiggler
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 10, 2006 9:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

BigBrotherPenton wrote:
What about CTPs?


I dont think so. Do they get included with the payout in the PDGA report?

BigBrotherPenton wrote:
And where is this written?


PDGA DISCussion board.
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BigBrotherPenton
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 11, 2006 10:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Found it:

Turning Pro
A player relinquishes amateur status by registering in a professional division with the PDGA, or by competing in a professional division at a PDGA Tour event and accepting prize money (cash) based on place of finish. A player also relinquishes amateur status by accepting prizes in lieu of prize money (cash) for placing in a professional division at a PDGA event.
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BigBrotherPenton
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 11, 2006 10:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Found here... http://www.pdga.com/documents/2006/06DivisionsGuide.pdf
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BigBrotherPenton
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 11, 2006 10:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Twirley, you didn't have to go to Pro.
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BigBrotherPenton
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 12, 2006 7:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

According to this, CTPs shouldn't have any effect.
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Splash
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 12, 2006 8:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

You will notice in the URL that you posted that the initial statement, which should be read as a generally understood principle, is that "Professionals play for prize money (cash). Amateurs and juniors compete for trophies and prizes."

A player will relinquish their amateur status when they accept money as a result of their place of finish. Twirly accepted a cash CTP which was not reported as $ winnings in the TD report from Brampton. This is a grey area, but I believe the generally accepted rule should apply: Ams play for prizes, Pros play for cash. Had a pro won the Diggler/Roxie Leafs Suck CTP, he would have received cash. An am won it, so he received full value in merch.

Since Twirly has not registered or upgraded his membership to Pro, and did not accept cash based on his order of finish at any tournament he entered, Twirly is still an Am playing in Pro divisions for enhanced competition. Good on him!

Darco won cash based on order of finish, and upgraded his membership on the spot, and accepted the balance in cash. He will now compete as, and be listed as a pro.
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Brother Andre
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 12, 2006 8:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I always thought that CTPs were side-bets and not part of the tourny payout structure. In my mind, CTPs don't count in regards to Am/Pro status. Though, I've been wrong once before.

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Chuck Shick
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 12, 2006 9:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

So then, during a seperate and unrelated instance, could the prize winner not return his prizes to the Ultimate disc golf store and receive a refund?
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Roxie
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 12, 2006 9:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

A CTP is not awarded based on your result though. What do AM's get when they win an Ace Pool? I don't think I'd sign up for an Ace pool anymore if I knew I was getting merch.
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Rolly
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 12, 2006 9:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

who the heck is enforcing these rules?
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burjwahzeh
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 12, 2006 9:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

BigBrotherPenton wrote:
Found it:

Turning Pro
A player relinquishes amateur status by registering in a professional division with the PDGA, or by competing in a professional division at a PDGA Tour event and accepting prize money (cash) based on place of finish. A player also relinquishes amateur status by accepting prizes in lieu of prize money (cash) for placing in a professional division at a PDGA event.


Well, the policy is clear on what must occur in order for a player to relinquish their amateur status. They must finish in the money, and the policy is clear that place of finish must be earned while playing in a professional division. There need never again be a question on CTP prizes and side-shows. If you don't report them, and if you don't advertise them, and if you don't link them to place (recall Mr. B's skins at the TiO of 2005: the word came down that this was placement money, and KSW was unable to claim that which he had won in the skins based on the fact that he needed to place in order to earn it, and that it was advertised as a tournament feature. I'm sure Don has details regarding this and can give us a full report on the ruling).

An aside: CTPs may be used to account for PDGA prize "money". It would appear that Don has the issue wrapped-up:

If the TD wants to record the CTPs as official "prizes" and report these as overall tournament value to the PDGA, the AM CTPs should respect what the PDGA dictates amateurs play for: prizes, and not cash. If the CTP is to be an officially endorsed prize, the prize should follow the official policy on what divisions pay for.

Otherwise, there is nothing that can be read here that prevents the awarding of a cash prize by a private interest to any participant for accomplishing any goal not related to placing in the tournament. A CTP has nothing to do with placing, so until the PDGA specifically addresses this with either an added policy statement or an official communique, I believe that any further statements regarding how this money MUST be given, must be reserved, and words like "must" or "shall" need to be replaced with "should" or "may".

The statements for CTPs and Longest Putts, and other side-shows become:
"An AM should receive merch," not "an AM must receive merch."
"A TD may award merch," not "a TD shall award merch."

Simple words for a simple fact: This money did not HAVE to be converted to merch in order to be awarded to an AM, especially since the TD never intended for this to be an official "prize" of the tournament. The fact that it was awarded as such means that Arthur can now claim it as an official prize and boost the payout value of the tournament if he so desires.
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Roxie
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 12, 2006 9:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

How about an official word on this;
------------------------------------------------
Name: Carl Visser
Pdga number: 16434

Message:

Can an AM player accept cash from a CTP contest at a PDGA event?

------------------------------------------------


Dear Carl,

Thanks for writing.

Yes, an Am can accept anything offered for a CTP contest. Ams turn pro when they accept cash (or a prize substitute for cash) based on their place finish.

Check out "Divisions Guide" here:

http://www.pdga.com/members.php

Yours Sincerely;

Carlton Howard
PDGA Rules Committee Chairman


I'd say that puts this one to bed!


Last edited by Roxie on Wed Jul 12, 2006 10:01 am; edited 2 times in total
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Don Lane
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 12, 2006 9:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Carlton's the man!
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burjwahzeh
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 12, 2006 10:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Roxie wrote:
How about an official word on this...


That is the official communique we've all been waiting for.
Good on the PDGA for actually addressing this in a timely fashion.
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Roxie
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 12, 2006 10:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

So again, Why did this Am have to accept merch?
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Don Lane
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 12, 2006 10:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

My gut reaction was to keep Am prizes as merch... Arthur asked me, and that was my reply. Now we know for future events, and we all learned something.
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