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BigBrotherPenton
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 28, 2006 11:00 am    Post subject: Discussion: Camp Fortune and it's water/creeks. Reply with quote

All water is casual?

Quote:

C. Casual Obstacles: A player may obtain relief only from the following obstacles: casual water, loose leaves or debris, broken branches no longer connected to a tree, motor vehicles, harmful insects or animals, players’ equipment, spectators, or any item or area specifically designated by the director before the round. Obstacles may not be moved if any part of the obstacle is between the lie and the hole. The type of relief a player may obtain is based on the location of the obstacle and is limited as follows:
(1) Casual obstacles between the lie and the hole: A player may move obstacles which became a factor during the round as described by 803.05 B.
(2) Casual obstacles to stance or throwing motion: The player must first attempt to remove the obstacle unless a portion of the obstacle is also between the lie and the hole. If it is impractical to move the obstacle, or if a portion of the obstacle is also between the lie and the hole, the player’s lie may be relocated to the nearest lie which is no closer to the hole, is on the line of play, and is not more than five meters from the original lie, as agreed to by a majority of the group or an official (unless greater casual relief is announced by the director). Alternatively, the player may declare an unplayable lie and proceed in accordance with 803.06.
(3) Casual obstacles to a run-up: The player may move the obstacle provided no part of the obstacle is between the lie and the hole. No other relief is provided.


So, you land in the water, you just take it out of the water and play it from as far back as 5 metres? You could theoritically take it out of the creek and play it from the road. Without a stroke? But someone who lands beside the creek must play it from the beside the creek.

(Edit: Title change and then this Edit thingy)


Last edited by BigBrotherPenton on Wed Jun 28, 2006 2:01 pm; edited 2 times in total
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Chuck Shick
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 28, 2006 11:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I would assume that you would take your disc at the edge of the creek, but if we are concerned that people will manipulate the pdga rules and move their disc 15 feet from the stream then let's make the all creeks OB -hole 1, 6, 15, 16, 17, 18.

Edit: having read the rules closer it says "nearest lie" which in all cases would be the edge of the creek. If the creek were more than 5 metres wide, then that would constitute an OB because they could get no relief but it's not so...


Last edited by Chuck Shick on Wed Jun 28, 2006 11:21 am; edited 1 time in total
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BigBrotherPenton
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 28, 2006 11:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The rule at CF should be to "Play were it lies". If you deem the lie to be "Unplayable", then you can relocate your lie, at a cost.

Quote:

803.06 Unplayable Lie
A. A player may declare his or her lie to be an unplayable lie. The player is the sole judge as to whether the lie is unplayable. The unplayable lie may be relocated to a new lie that is: (1) No closer to the hole, on the line of play and within five meters of the unplayable lie; or (2) The previous lie as evidenced by the marker disc or, if the marker disc has been moved, from an approximate lie as agreed to by the majority of the group or an official. The original throw plus one penalty throw are counted in the player’s score.


This is a very simple way to play Fortune. At a course that's well manicured, and all creeks and ponds are clearly defined, I would make them OB. At Fortune, your feet are going to get wet walking through the grass. I, personally, enjoy the story of me taking the shot from the water.

This, to me, is disc golf. You shoot from your disc (unless it's off the playing surface, then shoot from under it). If you chose not to, take a stroke.
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burjwahzeh
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 28, 2006 11:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Casual water means play it closest to where it lies out of the water, in line with and away from the basket. You do not take it to the road (that would require that you read "anywhere" instead of "closest" in the rules). You just don't have to stand in the creek to throw it (this is almost identical to ball golf rules that cover the same situation). The creek is not a dangerous lie (except perhaps in the early spring before the baskets are even in the ground). You're shot doesn't get better, and your footing is likely to be aweful. I don't see how this could be an advantage to anyone. The creek simply doesn't cost a stroke, and remains the obstacle to be avoided due to overgrowth anyways. You may also play it from the creek if you so desire.

Last edited by burjwahzeh on Wed Jun 28, 2006 11:48 am; edited 1 time in total
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BigBrotherPenton
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 28, 2006 11:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

So in essence, you're saying the creek doesn't exist.

I'd rather have it OB then. What's the point of having a hole around it then?

Aside: It's not a "dangerous" lie. It's an "unplayable" lie.
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burjwahzeh
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 28, 2006 11:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Chuck Shick wrote:
...

Edit: having read the rules closer it says "nearest lie" which in all cases would be the edge of the creek. If the creek were more than 5 metres wide, then that would constitute an OB because they could get no relief but it's not so...


The rules are clear: nearest lie. That is the edge of the creek. Anyone taking it to the road should be stroked for shooting from a spot other than their lie.
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BigBrotherPenton
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 28, 2006 11:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, they wouldn't get stroked, because the lie would have been determined by the majority of the players on the card.
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burjwahzeh
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 28, 2006 12:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

BigBrotherPenton wrote:
So in essence, you're saying the creek doesn't exist.

I'd rather have it OB then. What's the point of having a hole around it then?

Aside: It's not a "dangerous" lie. It's an "unplayable" lie.


I'm only suggesting that by defining the creek as casual water, the water does not exist. BTW, I'm not the one doing the defining. The foliage continues to present the greatest challenge to a low score on that hole, and I'll go on record stating that I can support this definition for that reason.

Re: the aside, a swollen creek in spring runoff is a dangerous lie, and while there is no definition for a dangerous lie in the rules, in the same spirit as stinging insects and animals (both of which can be considered dangerous), the argument is strong that the rule governing their circumstance is that for casual relief, and not that of the unplayable lie. By considering dangerous circumstances as unplayable, the unplayable lie rule makes it tempting for a player to risk their own safety in order to avoid being given a penalty stroke, and in the case of a swollen creek, that risk could have fatal consequences. Take a stroke or die is not in the lexicon of rules.
Also, nobody can declare a lie unplayable but the player themself. A TD (or course manager) may only declare the 2m rule, obstacles of casual relief, OB, and mandos, and may not tell a person that their lie is unplayable.
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BigBrotherPenton
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 28, 2006 1:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If you're going to move the conversation, you should at least change the title to a more neutral name. Stating that "All water at Camp Fortune is Casual" is a little misleading to those who don't read the whole conversation. "All water at Camp Fortune is Casual at TOSS" would work better.

Stating that water on a particular hole has special rules because the grass is high, is weak. Grass is high on every hole, and that's the nature of the beast. The fact that scores on that hole are not always low is not because of the foliage, it's because you have to throw the disc far, and around those trees. People may lose discs because the grass is high, but you can lose a disc 100 feet off the tee pad if you aren't paying attention.

If this is going to be the case you should also make all the stick/log piles casual as well.

Yes, you are the one doing the defining.

Re: Re: the Aside, I fully agree and that's my point. If you throw into the water (and last year that would have been considered OB) and you don't want to throw from there, then don't and take a stroke. You would have last year. But if you want to shoot from the water, don't take the stroke. Or just make the creek OB, and there's no more arguements.
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Brother Andre
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 28, 2006 1:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I like the idea that everything at CF is playable. I'd be happy to stand in the creek to play a disc if that's where it goes. It's a story to tell later: "You should've seen the kick-ass approach Brother had from the creek on 17! Yeah, he was IN the creek. He saved a par. Wicked cool!"

(Others would make bird from there...I'm just modest big grin )

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Roxie
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 28, 2006 1:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

What is so special about the water a CF? It's a creek and it water and it's there all year long - it should be OB. No?
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BigBrotherPenton
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 28, 2006 1:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Now, after this lengthy discussion, I agree. #17 water should be OB. If you don't want people in it, then stroke them for throwing into it.
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burjwahzeh
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 28, 2006 1:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

BigBrotherPenton wrote:
If you're going to move the conversation, you should at least change the title to a more neutral name. Stating that "All water at Camp Fortune is Casual" is a little misleading to those who don't read the whole conversation. "All water at Camp Fortune is Casual at TOSS" would work better.

You are the author of the thread. Please change it if you would like. This is not a TOSS issue, though, and only a clarification to what people have asked me, and what was said to me by the course GM last night. I'm not going to make a decision on this, as it is not mine to make.
BigBrotherPenton wrote:

Stating that water on a particular hole has special rules because the grass is high, is weak. Grass is high on every hole, and that's the nature of the beast. The fact that scores on that hole are not always low is not because of the foliage, it's because you have to throw the disc far, and around those trees. People may lose discs because the grass is high, but you can lose a disc 100 feet off the tee pad if you aren't paying attention.

If this is going to be the case you should also make all the stick/log piles casual as well.

There is nothing special about the rule on this hole. All water was said to be casual. That includes hole 17. No special ruling is needed, and the ruling wasn't made because the grass is long.
I simply stated that making the water on the hole casual wouldn't necessarily change the overall essence of the hole. Water or no water, you want to avoid the area.
BigBrotherPenton wrote:

Yes, you are the one doing the defining.

No, it's not my decision to make. That decision belongs to the course GM and how they intend the course to be played. I'll simply follow their guidelines.
BigBrotherPenton wrote:

Re: Re: the Aside, I fully agree and that's my point. If you throw into the water (and last year that would have been considered OB) and you don't want to throw from there, then don't and take a stroke. You would have last year. But if you want to shoot from the water, don't take the stroke. Or just make the creek OB, and there's no more arguements.

Casual relief does not require one to take a stroke for seeking relief within the guidelines of the rule. It doesn't require that you seek relief either (unless stated explicitly by the TD). Casual relief means that you can shoot from where you are (no penalty), or move to where you are allowed to and establish your lie (no penalty).
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Chuck Shick
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 28, 2006 1:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ok, how about this?

All water on the course (other than the creek that runs across 16 and 17): play it where it lies.

The water in the creek that runs across on 16 & 17: OB. If your disc is completely surrounded by water in that creek, you take a stroke and move it one metre from where it went out. That way, if it is on the edge of the creek, you can move it 1 metre out.

Does that work?
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BigBrotherPenton
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 28, 2006 1:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

burjwahzeh wrote:
BigBrotherPenton wrote:

Re: Re: the Aside, I fully agree and that's my point. If you throw into the water (and last year that would have been considered OB) and you don't want to throw from there, then don't and take a stroke. You would have last year. But if you want to shoot from the water, don't take the stroke. Or just make the creek OB, and there's no more arguements.


Casual relief does not require one to take a stroke for seeking relief within the guidelines of the rule. It doesn't require that you seek relief either (unless stated explicitly by the TD). Casual relief means that you can shoot from where you are (no penalty), or move to where you are allowed to and establish your lie (no penalty).


Thanks. sarcastic eye roll I'm the one who posted the rules at the begining.
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BigBrotherPenton
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 28, 2006 1:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Chuck Shick wrote:
Ok, how about this?

All water on the course (other than the creek that runs across 16 and 17): play it where it lies.

The water in the creek that runs across on 16 & 17: OB. If your disc is completely surrounded by water in that creek, you take a stroke and move it one metre from where it went out. That way, if it is on the edge of the creek, you can move it 1 metre out.

Does that work?


Yes.
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Mike McCormick
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 28, 2008 2:15 pm    Post subject: Disc in culvert Reply with quote

A disc is thrown on Camp Forture new 11 (old 15) and lands in the creek about 1/2 down the fairway. The disc is swept about 4 feet into the culvert. It is agreed it is an unplayable lie. From where does the player take his/her next throw from, the entrance of the culvert or on the fairway above where the disc is resting?
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vinylfactory
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 28, 2008 4:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Brother Andre wrote:
I like the idea that everything at CF is playable. I'd be happy to stand in the creek to play a disc if that's where it goes. It's a story to tell later: "You should've seen the kick-ass approach Brother had from the creek on 17! Yeah, he was IN the creek. He saved a par. Wicked cool!"

(Others would make bird from there...I'm just modest big grin )

Brother


This is the philosophy of the OD tour--play the disc in the water if you want. if you're fussy and would rather not get wet, take a stroke.

At the 2006 TiO we saw many players whose disc landed in the canal on #4 jump in and take their lie from the water. The classic was seeing Kimmer cannonball to get to his lie in the skins...

Makes for great stories.
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burjwahzeh
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 30, 2008 11:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

vinyl, the PDGA has since amended its rules and any TD can now issue the same rules set regarding water as you just described. They also have the opportunity to pick and choose OB water, casual water, and water that is treated like it isn't there at all (OD Tour water, if you will) on an individual basis. There is only a requirement to communicate these intentions prior to the event.

Mike, your ruling is a simple one (the following is cited from memory and without direct reference to the rules; you can make it an excercise to find the ruling numbers in the rule book):

A disc in water is considered at rest even when moving with the current. The water on this run has been treated as if it isn't there for lie purposes at all Tuesday events (and it will be at the CC as well). If you were playing in one of these events, you would play from where the disc was best considered to have come to rest which in your case was likely where you say it landed: In the creek outside the culvert.

Note: As I recall from my last reading of the rules, the PDGA does not distinguish between casual water, non-water, and OB water with regards to flowing water and how the lie is to be marked. As I recall, the reference is strictly to "water", which can exist in any of the 3 embodiments described at the top of this post. If this is not the case, a citation of the rule would be welcome.

Aside: had you thrown it into the culvert (a near impossible shot without using the flow of the water), you would be able to mark it directly above where it came to rest in the culvert thanks to the rule of verticality.
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OMR
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 30, 2008 3:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Gotta love the verticality factor.
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