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Ken Darcovich
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 22, 2006 8:38 am    Post subject: inventing a format - feedback appreciated Reply with quote

As I am wont to do on the bicycle to work in the morning, the body labours while the mind wanders, this time happily to the subject of dreaming up a new disc golf game that perhaps we could try one Thursday evening sometime soon.

I’d like to outline it here to get any feedback people might have, to see if it seems as plausible to everyone as it seems to me at this early point where it hasn’t yet been tested on the course. The provisional name I have for this game is “coup d’état”, and it works as follows:

For a card of 4 players, a game over 20 holes would take place where each player takes a turn as the “leader” for 5 holes. I think it would be better in a block of 5 consecutive holes rather than cycling around the card.

The essence of the game is that everyone must follow the leader to stay alive, but they are all attempting to stage a coup. All discs must land “outside” the leader, the only exception is in the basket for a coup. Anyone “inside” the leader, but not in the basket is dead. Read on.

The leader is always the first to drive. The other players then drive and must land FURTHER from the basket than the leader to stay alive. The only exception of course is to score an Ace, which constitutes a coup. If any drive lands inside the leader, that player is finished for the hole. The throws are done in turn, rather than based on distance to the basket in conventional golf. The leader is always the first to throw. If the leader sinks his second shot, he has maintained “control” and scores a point. If the leader’s second shot is not in the basket, the other players then throw, in the order based on distance from the basket. If one of the other players sinks his second shot, he has staged a coup and scores 2 points. If attempting to stage a coup, a player’s disc chains out and lands right next to the basket inside the leader’s disc, that player is finished for the hole. So on, and so on until someone is in the basket. The leader gets 1 point for keeping control, or one other player could take 2 points for staging a coup. The leader must drive and approach strategically to keep the others at bay.

Other details:

- Leaders can never incur penalty strokes. If a leader goes OB or misses a mando, the disc is put back into play at the appropriate spot and the others must follow from that spot as if it were only one throw from the leader.
- Penalty strokes incurred by other players eliminate them from further play on that hole. Life isn’t fair in under a dictatorship.
- Just to clarify about throws in turn, if someone’s drive is blocked very short and he’s 50 m behind everyone else, he still only throws by turn, albeit first after the leader’s 2nd throw. He doesn’t “catch up” as one normally would in stroke play.
- The winner of the game is simply the one with most “coup d’état” points; 1 for keeping control of a hole as a leader, 2 for each successful coup against other leaders.

Any feedback about this proposed format would be appreciated.

After hashing it out together for the next 8 days, if people are on board, could we try it for LN week 08 ??


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burjwahzeh
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 22, 2006 8:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sounds alot like "wolf", with a certain geo-political twist. This can be done over 18 holes using the wolf method of scoring, and it represents a format that I don't believe we have ever tried. A strong short game will take you far.
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Brother Andre
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 22, 2006 8:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

1. As a player whose approach game is his bread and butter...I LIKE IT!
2. Paul, what is "wolf"?
3. I like the potential risk/reward scenarios that could play out. Someone desperate for points near the end could be running aces or "field aces".

Sounds neat-o.

big grin

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Ken Darcovich
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 22, 2006 8:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I was curious about Wolf and found a description here:

http://www.morleyfield.com/course/othergames.htm

Wolf has some vague similarities to this, but is essentially a sleeping-around team form of a skins game. In fact, we ought to try Wolf as well. It looks good too. Wolf does not contain any of the "follow the leader" elements contained here.


Last edited by Ken Darcovich on Thu Jun 22, 2006 9:00 am; edited 1 time in total
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Brother Andre
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 22, 2006 9:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wolf is cool, too.

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Ken Darcovich
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 22, 2006 9:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

As described above, there is no penalty for a failed coup. I don't know if we want wreckless attempts, or do we in fact? Would it help the format to give some small minus score to someone "dying" by going inside the leader??

As it stands, there is nothing to lose, everything to gain by firing away.
On the other hand, firing away too soon likely is to the advantage of the leader. What about a half point penalty for "dying" on or after the 3rd shot?
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Splash
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 22, 2006 9:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

No points for the dead, but they can be saluted for their brave attempts to overthrow the dictator.

Nice format. Looking forward to it. Smile
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Ken Darcovich
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 22, 2006 9:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

extra detail: if a leader hasn't holed out after 7 throws, he isn't much of a leader, and does not win the control point. Zeros on the card in this case.
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burjwahzeh
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 22, 2006 9:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ken Darcovich wrote:
As described above, there is no penalty for a failed coup. I don't know if we want wreckless attempts, or do we in fact? Would it help the format to give some small minus score to someone "dying" by going inside the leader??

As it stands, there is nothing to lose, everything to gain by firing away.
On the other hand, firing away too soon likely is to the advantage of the leader. What about a half point penalty for "dying" on or after the 3rd shot?


Someone attempting a coup is likely to be tried for treason, and executed or exiled.

A failed coup should present the leader with options for sympathy or for punishment. What could that be?
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julz
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 22, 2006 9:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

sound really fun!
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Splash
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 22, 2006 9:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

burjwahzeh wrote:

Someone attempting a coup is likely to be tried for treason, and executed or exiled.

A failed coup should present the leader with options for sympathy or for punishment. What could that be?


Just throwing this out for discussion...

The Disc Dictator could make the failed coup leader shoot his drive with the disc of the Dictator's choice from the failed coup leader's bag?
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Last edited by Splash on Thu Jun 22, 2006 9:50 am; edited 1 time in total
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Ken Darcovich
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 22, 2006 9:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

>>>
The Disc Dictator could make the failed coup agitator shoot his drive with the disc of the Dictator's choice from the failed coup agitator's bag?
<<<

Don, sometimes you are so mild and gentle. An unexpected suggestion, but not a bad one at all...
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julz
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 22, 2006 9:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Splash wrote:
The Disc Dictator


The Disctator? big grin
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Roxie
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 22, 2006 9:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wolf is a lot of fun. Used to play it in white ball all the time.
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Stefan
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 22, 2006 2:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I like the sound of this....

One technical note: When far away from basket a difficult to measure precise distances, the benefit of doubt shold be on the side of challengers (i.e. don't be excluded from the rest of the hole if it is inconclusive whether you or the dictator is closer). For close-in distance it would be good if each group had a 30-40 feet string to speed-up play.

What about this scoring change: If the dictator manages to win the skin, he gets 2 points. If it is a push with one challenger, the dictator and the challenger gets 1 points each. If it is a push with two or more challengers, nobody gets points (or the 2 points are distributed among the challengers, the dictator gets nothing). If the dictator loses the skin, he gets 0 and everybody that beats him on this hole gets 2 points. (the rule that if you are closer to the basket then the dictator, you are dead remains in effect)

Justification: The dictator is not motivated to do much strategy. The only bad thing is to land in the bubble zone from where the putts are difficult but not impossible (so that a challenger can make the putt while the dictator misses). A safe strategy for the dictator is to lay up some 70 feet from the basket: a successful putt by a challenger is unlikely and it is an easy par and 1 point for the dictator.

With the proposed modification, the dictator has it tougher: if he lands out of putting range but for easy approach, he will get 0 because others will get an easy 3. If he lands under the basket on an easy-birdie hole, others might also get 2 and he will get 0 or 1 point. He wants to land just at the bubble distance where he hopes to make putt and challengers to miss it (after all, they must be further back). But that is also the danger zone if he misses the putt.

On tough holes (say #10, sadly, there are not many left), the dictator wants to land far enough from the basket so that approaches are tough but doable.

This format definitively needs groups of about the same skilll (as (uber)works needed).
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Ken Darcovich
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 22, 2006 3:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I like Stefan's graduated scoring ideas.
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burjwahzeh
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 22, 2006 4:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Stefan wrote:
I like the sound of this....

... If it is a push with two or more challengers, nobody gets points (or the 2 points are distributed among the challengers, the dictator gets nothing). If the dictator loses the skin, he gets 0 and everybody that beats him on this hole gets 2 points. ...

Justification: The dictator is not motivated to do much strategy. The only bad thing is to land in the bubble zone from where the putts are difficult but not impossible (so that a challenger can make the putt while the dictator misses). A safe strategy for the dictator is to lay up some 70 feet from the basket: a successful putt by a challenger is unlikely and it is an easy par and 1 point for the dictator.
...


Stefan is on to something here. I like the idea of three points per hole.
Consider the possible outcomes:

1) disctator dominates: 3 points, and the disctator remains as such.
2) one challenger gets it in two along with the disctator: 2 points to disctator, 1 to the challenger, and the challenger becomes the new disctator (hey, Paul Martin learned his lesson: win a majority, or leave!)
3) two challengers get it in along with the disctator: one to everyone that got it in, and while the victors are off celebrating, the 4th place guy sneaks in and becomes the disctator (the consolation prize if you will).
4) Everyone gets the same score: The disctator gets nothing, everyone else gets one point, and for being such a wreck, the disctator gets to stay as disctator to try and clean-up their mess.
5) The disctator gets rubbed-out by 1 (the low scorer gets three points and becomes disctator), or two (The furthest out gets 2 and the other person gets 1, and while the disctator is taken to trial and the successful coup parties celebrate, the sneaky forth moves in to become disctator), or three opponents (even points (1) to all coup parties around, and they install a puppet government, leaving the disctator in his place).

Lots of combinations, lots of movement, and easy score keeping, because there are three points per hole, and that makes the aggregate score at the end of the game a simple 54.

One sub-rule that would add a level of strategy to the game:
The only throw that needs to be further away than the disctators should be the last throw made by each player (think of it as getting caught with your knives out), provided you are throwing for the same score. IF you can kill the disctator outright, you should be allowed to do it.

Example:
Hole three:
Disctator throws, and shanks. This is akin to introducing bad policy early in a mandate. The opponents can now battle for position by throwing respectable drives.
The disctator throws again, and still lands 50+' away (not likely to make his next shot either). The other players can park theirs, we'll say just outside 10'.
The disctator throws their third, and
a) it goes in, so he automatically kills everyone (ha ha ha!) (their third shot is their last one and they got caught with their knives out).
b) hits the basket and rolls away slightly, landing inside of everyone elses, who now all drain their third throws, disgracing the disctator, getting a point each, and re-installing him as disctator until someone else gets the honours, or
c) hits the basket and rolls slightly away, leaving one shot inside, and two outside of the range of his disc. The guy inside kills the dicstator for one point due to his easy drop-in putt and one-stroke lower score, another outsider kills the dicstator by draining his 15' putt, and the third hits the basket but it doesn't go in, and he lands CLOSER than the disctator, who cans his next and kills the close guy (he is killed, because his last shot, the drop-in, was was closer than the disctator's last shot, and they were both boggie shots). Longest putt guy gets two points, 2nd longest putt guy gets one point, the disctator is disgraced, and the guy that got killed actually gets promoted to disctator.

Conversely, if the disctator lands his 2nd shot 25' away, and 2 of three land their 2nd shot inside but the third lands outside,
a) the disctator takes his third and cans it: the two inside guys are caught with their knives out and killed. The third guy, further away, gets to go for the tie shot, and i) cans it for one point and becomes disctator, or ii) misses and the disctator beats everyone and gets three points;
b) the disctator takes his third shot and misses it. The two inside kill him with their easy putts, for one point each, and the far-out guy can throw and either i) can it and share in the spoils by getting a point, or ii) strategically throw the point away, and assume the dicstatorial position. being evil

Your skill for the day will lead you to seek the disctator position, or to shun it.
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burjwahzeh
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 22, 2006 4:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The other thing about this three-point method is that
a) total domination of the disctator is rewarded by keeping him there.
b) total failure of the disctator keeps him in his place too, as people simply leach points away from the disctator.
c) a single outstanding performance earns good points and the position (nice!),
d) a twin outstanding performance actually shakes things up by placing the last finisher in the top spot eek
e) a one-way tie with the disctator sees him tossed, and the single party rewarded for their solid play by points and position, and a single point to the outtgoing disctator (insurance for being in the spot, a golden handshake if you will)
f) a two-way tie with the disctator not only sees him tossed, but rewards the last finisher as well. (Three player tie, the forth gets the position.

How could the order not get changed up on almost every hole?
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burjwahzeh
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 22, 2006 4:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

No need for an unusual 20 holes either.

I'm liking this method more the more I think about it.
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Splash
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 22, 2006 9:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

We played the "basic" version of this format after League tonight, and found it to be too easy for the Disctator to dictate his way to a single point. If we allowed him up to 7 strokes a hole, we'd only be encouraging his defensive style of play. I think the first thing to change is the maximum number of strokes a Disctator can have to finish a hole, which should be 5 maximum on any hole. This would minimize defensive 20' tosses to the "Optimal Distance" as outlined above in Euro's post.

Euro and Paul talked about a lot of variants to the basic format - I like elements of each, including ET's skins, and Burjwahzeh's 3-pt holes. We can make a lot of fun formats through these related ideas.

Here is another variation of this format, which could be called a "South American Dictatorship" (as opposed to a "European Dictatorship"), and it would award points to players who survive holes and take risks.

Every card would have a "Disctator" and three "Officers." This can be done by flipping discs, or throwing a single shot CTP and establishing a playing order which you write down on your card like normal. This playing order becomes important in the rollover of future Disctators (read below).

The Disctator's drive is considered a Minimum Performance Standard that he expects his officers to be able to attain. If an Officer's drive is not at least as good as the standard the Disctator sets, the Officer is shot in a firing squad and is considered dead for that hole. When in doubt about the quality of an Officer's drive in relation to that of the Disctator, ties go to the Officers (guys in the military stick up for one another). The Disctator gets two votes, and his Officers get a single vote apiece.

On the 2nd (and any subsequent) shot, the Disctator shoots first and his disc must land closer to the basket than the earlier shot of his best Officer. Failure to do so is political suicide, and such a failed leader gets tossed out of the palace and into the street. In such a case, the remaining player (if there is only one left alive) automatically becomes the new Disctator. If two or more players are left, the first player to hole out (following all the normal rules of throwing order) becomes the new Disctator. In order to "survive" the hole, any other player must at least "push" the score of the new Disctator.

Disctators must finish a hole in 5 strokes. Failure to do so sets the peasantry ablaze with non-confidence, and they loot the palace and kick you out in to the sewers. Succession in this case is dealt with as above.

On holes where the Disctator successfully shoots inside his best Officer's last shot, his surviving officers must shoot closer to the basket than their Disctator. Failure to live up to the tough standard set by the Disctator will get them shot. If an Officer holes out before a Disctator, he has successfully made a "Coup d'état," and becomes the new Disctator. If a Disctator holes out before anyone else, he wins that hole and continues in his dictatorial reign of terror. All surviving Officers must at least "push" the score of the Disctator in order to finish the hole alive.

If you die on a hole, or are a failed Disctator, you get 0 points. If you are an Officer who survives the firing squad, and you finish the hole, you get 1 point. If the Disctator wins the hole, he gets 2 points. If you overthrow the Disctator, and succeed him in office, you get the same reward the Disctator would have earned: 2 points.

The peasants get upset with any Disctator who is in office for 4 consecutive terms (holes), so any Disctator who holds the office for such a length gets automatically overthrown upon conclusion of that hole, and replaced by the next player on the scorecard (if all others have held the office for the same number of terms) or the player next on the list who has held the title of Disctator the least often.
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Last edited by Splash on Thu Jun 22, 2006 9:55 pm; edited 1 time in total
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