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redline
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 11, 2005 10:31 am    Post subject: Wrong Side Of Mandatory While Disc in Flight OB Reply with quote

This happened during the tournament during the Super 9, it was resolved incorrectly, but there were no course officials that were present. There were a lot of rumblings as to validity of the rules as they related to this, and how they would have been applied had his disc landed OB as opposed in in bounds. In the end, the shot was played as it was supposed to be, but PEOPLE WERE MAKING UP THEIR OWN RULES AND MISINTERPRETTING THE RULES AS THEY APPLIED TO THIS SITUATION:

What Happened:
On his first shot, KSW drove his disc wide and right of the mando on the Super 9 mando hole (I don't recall which # it was, but all present will remember). It clearly went OB before crossing the mando plain. It landed in bounds.

The Question:
Does Kim mark it where it went OB, or does he take his next shot from the mando drop?

The (Incorrect) Ruling:
Because Kim's shot came in bounds, it was not out of bounds, but crossed the mando on the wrong side, so he tees from the mando spot. If Kim's disc had come to rest OB, he would have to shoot from where his disc went OB (which was a much worse spot to shoot from).

The Consequence (as it was played):
Kim shot his next shot from the mando drop zone (the red tee), and was assigned a penalty stroke for missing the mando.

The Correct Ruling:
803.08 Out of Bounds
E. A throw that misses a mandatory shall be penalized and the lie marked according to the mandatory rule (803.11). It will not be further penalized for any other reason, such as out-of-bounds or above two meters.

It doesn't matter where Kim's disc landed, either in bounds, or out of bounds. 803.08 E is very clear about this. If you cross the mandatory plain, you play by that rule, and the mando rule is applied no matter what else happens. Kim's next shot was played from where it was supposed to be played from, but too many people were making up rules about his disc having to land in bounds.

One Consequence of this Rule:
The yellow teepad for hole #12 should not be moved away from the mando. As it is now, most players that are prepared to play the yellow pads are also skilled enough to drive through the mando. As the teepad moves further back, fewer and fewer players will be able to do that on their first shot. However, at a certain point, many might consider a lay-up, but why would you? You can drive as hard as you want, but if you miss the mando, even if you throw OB and down the bike path, you get to tee from the easy red tee location. If you get it through, you'll be looking at a birdie. A good reward for what really isn't much of a risk in light of where the drop zone is. This is a dangerous situation, though, because the further back you move the teepad, the less likely you will be to see a cyclist coming down the path, and the more likely you will be to hit them, knowing that all you have to do to get the good drop zone is break the mando plain.

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Kitty Hawk
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 11, 2005 10:36 am    Post subject: Wrong Side Of Mandatory While Disc in Flight OB Reply with quote

Does that mean that Schultz should have taken the drop at the red pad as well?

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peachgrinder
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 11, 2005 10:43 am    Post subject: Wrong Side Of Mandatory While Disc in Flight OB Reply with quote

Good find, Paul.

What I find interesting is that this rule is only located on the Out of Bounds section, and not the Mandatory section, of the PDGA rule book. This is something that I think would be in both (for clarity's sake).

PEACH

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redline
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 11, 2005 11:03 am    Post subject: Wrong Side Of Mandatory While Disc in Flight OB Reply with quote

quote:
Originally posted by Kitty Hawk:
Does that mean that Schultz should have taken the drop at the red pad as well?



I don't recall what Shultz's situation was, but if his disc cleared the mando trees and landed OB, he should have played from the mando drop zone and not the spot witin 1m of where he went OB.
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Ken Darcovich
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 11, 2005 11:10 am    Post subject: Wrong Side Of Mandatory While Disc in Flight OB Reply with quote


Here's another point for clarification/discussion connected to the mando on 12.

In the 3rd round, a forehand drive was turfed short, caught an edge, rolled through the mando, across the bike path, then back around in a cirle to a spot in bounds, but to the right of the right hand side tree, and also back behind the mando plane.

What takes precedence here? Being behind the mando plane, does this mean that the mando must be respected again on the second shot? Or, having fulfilled the mando, would it be OK to shoot outside the mando on the second shot? In this particular case, it was moot, since the second shot chosen went back through the mando, but again this raises another question, as some mandos still have requirements for the paths of second shots (ie; number 8 at Brown's Farm, a "V" shaped hole, where the pin is about 10 m from the tee, but you go out to the right of a mando tree, and then back at the pin again to the right of the mando tree.) So in our case, we might say that once through the mando, you can't rewind as it were??

This situation on 12 had never arisen before, so perhaps we need an additional clause covering the case as described above.


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redline
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 11, 2005 11:13 am    Post subject: Wrong Side Of Mandatory While Disc in Flight OB Reply with quote

The aspect of the OB rule that puts everything in a clear light is the following:

803.08 Out of Bounds
A. A disc shall be considered out-of-bounds only when it comes to rest and it is clearly and completely surrounded by the out-of-bounds area. ...

Any disc still in motion is not yet OB. It is considered OB only when it comes to rest. This is why you can throw over water if you want to. The 803.08 E rule makes absolute sense when you consider that any disc that is still moving is still considered "In Play", or better said, it is not yet considered out-of-bounds until it comes to rest. Any shot that crossed the mando plain had to do so while still in motion. How could it cross the plain when it was at rest (barring an animal or spectator picking it up, but those cases are covered elsewhere in the rules)? No disc is OB when it crosses a mando plain. Crossing the plain on the wrong side therefore becomes the first broken rule, and 803.08 E provides that you shouldn't be penalized for any other reason if this is the case. The disc is considered "dead" as soon as it misses the mando. The shot is finished, no matter where it comes to rest or how it gets there.

[This message has been edited by redline (edited July 11, 2005).]

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redline
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 11, 2005 11:18 am    Post subject: Wrong Side Of Mandatory While Disc in Flight OB Reply with quote

quote:
Originally posted by Ken Darcovich:

Here's another point for clarification/discussion connected to the mando on 12.

In the 3rd round, a forehand drive was turfed short, caught an edge, rolled through the mando, across the bike path, then back around in a cirle to a spot in bounds, but to the right of the right hand side tree, and also back behind the mando plane.



This is covered in 803.11 Mandatories.
C.A throw is considered to have passed the mandatory if it passes the correct side of the mandatory, crosses the mandatory line from the direction of the tee, and comes to rest lying completely beyond that line. Once the mandatory has been passed on the correct side, the mandatory is to be ignored for the remainder of play on that hole.

The disc isn't through the mando until it comes to rest AND is completely beyond the mando line. This player wasn't past the mando line when the disc came to rest, so he/she could not be considered to have successfully negotiated the mando. Their next shot is taken from where it lies, and they must still put it through the mando.

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LeppyR64
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 11, 2005 11:23 am    Post subject: Wrong Side Of Mandatory While Disc in Flight OB Reply with quote

See above...

[This message has been edited by LeppyR64 (edited July 11, 2005).]
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Ken Darcovich
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 11, 2005 11:32 am    Post subject: Wrong Side Of Mandatory While Disc in Flight OB Reply with quote


Let's split hairs, shall we.

On the V-shaped hole I mentioned, I had a lucky break, but by the letter of the rule as you describe, it might have been unlucky. My drive went very slightly to the right of the mando tree, then hit another tree just behind it, and bounced backwards towards the basket, essentially around the outside of the point of the V. However, as an isolated result, I landed short of the mando, if the "comes to rest" condition is applied literally. The intent of the mando was to go around the outside of the V which I was lucky to do in one shot rather than two.

My point is, part of the interpretation is how the mandos themselves are defined. In the case of hole 12 are we "exiting a funnel", in this case no rewind allowed, or are we "always going through the posts" ? The comparison to Brown's farm was to show that no one had a problem with my disc going around the point of the V, but the rules as written, might allow someone to argue that I hadn't in fact satisfied the mando requirement.

I think that the intent of our mando on 12 is to avoid throws over the bike path, so that the "behind the plane" condition ought to take precedence, and further it's up to us who created this mando, to make this explicit in opposition to other possible interpretations.

[This message has been edited by Ken Darcovich (edited July 11, 2005).]

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redline
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 11, 2005 12:21 pm    Post subject: Wrong Side Of Mandatory While Disc in Flight OB Reply with quote

quote:
Originally posted by Ken Darcovich:

Let's split hairs, shall we.
...
I think that the intent of our mando on 12 is to avoid throws over the bike path, so that the "behind the plane" condition ought to take precedence, and further it's up to us who created this mando, to make this explicit in opposition to other possible interpretations.

The rules are equally explicit with respect to what constitutes crossing the mando on the wrong side:

803.11
B. ... A throw is considered to have missed the mandatory if it passes the incorrect side of the mandatory, crosses the mandatory line from the direction of the tee, and comes to rest lying completely beyond that line.

By this, even if you missed the mando, because you didn't land on the wrong side, you are not considered to have crossed it.

Now, just a word about mandos. There is no PDGA stipulation with regards to mandos and how they are to be used to enhance disc golf holes, but I've read course design documents that state that mandos should not be used unless unavoidable. Unavoidable mandos are those that are present for safety reasons, but if there is a safety concern, the hole should be removed from play entirely. This makes sense to me, in that I should be able to approach any shot any way I want. In the case of hole #12, for the safety of OPUs and golfers on #11, a mando is required and necessary. In the case of the hole that you mention, it sounds as though it is simply a poorly designed hole. Would you want to stand on a tee where the people finishing the hole you are on are firing their approach shots within a couple of feet of where you are? I wouldn't. Mandos are hole "features" that can turn a good golf hole into a circus.

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redline
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 11, 2005 3:43 pm    Post subject: Wrong Side Of Mandatory While Disc in Flight OB Reply with quote

quote:
Originally posted by Ken Darcovich:

Let's split hairs, shall we. ...

My point is, part of the interpretation is how the mandos themselves are defined. In the case of hole 12 are we "exiting a funnel", in this case no rewind allowed, or are we "always going through the posts" ? The comparison to Brown's farm was to show that no one had a problem with my disc going around the point of the V, but the rules as written, might allow someone to argue that I hadn't in fact satisfied the mando requirement.


The following is used to define the mando:
803.11 Mandatories
B. ...
1) The mandatory line is the line marked by the director or course designer to indicate when a disc has passed the mandatory.
(2) If no line is marked, the mandatory line is defined as a straight line through the mandatory, perpendicular to the line from the tee to the mandatory.
(3) In the case of a double mandatory when no line is marked, the mandatory line is the straight line connecting the two mandatories, and extends beyond them in both directions.

Hole #12 at JCP has a double mando: Left of the right tree, right of the left tree.

The hole at the farm that you're talking about could be defined as either #1 or #2. If the director marks a line, you have to cross it. If there is no marking, #2 applies. Here is the irony on this V shaped hole: because of the way that the mando is defined in #2, you could throw a high hyzer shot, have it cross the mando on the correct side, but because the line is defined as perpendicular to the line from the teepad, if it loses distance at the end of its flight, it could cross that line again, and by the letter of the law, not count. #1 however, allows the TD to draw the line, which in this case should probably be a ray extending from the tree away from both the teepad and the hole, (turning your "V" into a "Y" if you will ). Crossing the wrong side is a simple case: you didn't cross the line and you still have to. Once you cross the line, however, you could roll around all you want on the other side of the tee: the mando line has been defined by the TD and the plane has no "wrong" side. This is highly interpretive, but it does make sense.

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Kitty Hawk
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 11, 2005 3:54 pm    Post subject: Wrong Side Of Mandatory While Disc in Flight OB Reply with quote

The funny thing with all the talk of mandos for safety reasons is that under PDGA rules if you were to hit...oh, let's say a cyclist on a bike path, and the disc bounced off of their head and landed in bounds there would be no penalty. You can actually benfit from hitting a park user instead of just throwing into an area where you 'could' hit a user (ie- a bike path which is OB for safety reasons).
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peachgrinder
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 11, 2005 8:49 pm    Post subject: Wrong Side Of Mandatory While Disc in Flight OB Reply with quote

For even more insight, go to the Rules FAQ section and look at the Missed Mando - Went OB question.

The link won't work, so you will have to go to PDGA.com and rules and look it up yourself.

PEACH

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discraftpro
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 14, 2005 10:27 am    Post subject: Wrong Side Of Mandatory While Disc in Flight OB Reply with quote

I would contend that by crossing the OB short of the Mando amd never returning in bounds, the person never crossed beyond the Mando while in play. This means that the person incurs the OB penalty and plays from last place in bounds. If you cross OB before the Mando and never return in bounds, the Mando never existed. I think that the rule was played correctly. Here is a link to the pdga rules discussion on this subject. Being a rules official, I had hoped that my interpretation was correct.
http://www.pdga.com/msgboard/showflat.php?Cat=&Number=15112&page=&view=&sb=5&o=&fpart=1&vc=1

[This message has been edited by discraftpro (edited July 14, 2005).]

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