Ottawa Disc Golf Club

Reply to topic ODGC Forums Forum Index -> Disc Golf Rules & Course Safety -> Disc in a Tree Goto page 1, 2  Next
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
BenW
Disc Jockey


Joined: 05 Aug 2004
Posts: 646
Location: Ottawa via Charlottetown, PEI

PostPosted: Sat Jul 02, 2005 3:46 pm    Post subject: Disc in a Tree Reply with quote

I know there has been a lot of debate within the PDGA about getting rid of the one stroke penalty for a disc that's more than 2m above the ground. What's the status of the rule? The PDGA DISCussion board gives me the impression that it's to be used at a TD's discretion whereas the actual rules amke no mention of the talked about change.

I only ask because I wound up in a tree on #7 yesterday and wondered if I would have been penalized had it happened at the Capital Classic.

Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Middle Master P
Tonal Pole


Joined: 23 Apr 2003
Posts: 56
Location: Montreal, Vancouver, Ottawa

PostPosted: Mon Feb 20, 2006 9:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I also read somewhere that there is no penalty for height. plus out of bounds now includes the line so no more "it's only half way in the water..." and lost discs must be played from original lie and so there's no more "where did we see it last..."
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
Captain Crunch
Trodden Teepad


Joined: 19 Nov 2005
Posts: 42
Location: North Bay, Ontario

PostPosted: Mon Feb 20, 2006 10:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ben, I hope this helps. It's right from the PDGA Q&A Section.

Rule Question: Is the 2-meter rule still in effect?
Question
Is the 2-meter rule still in effect? Are there new rules for 2006?

Response
Yes, there are new rules for 2006.

In the new version of the rules, the 2 meter rule is NOT in affect unless specifically invoked by the TD. The PDGA default is NO 2 meter rule.

So if the TD doesn't mention it in the players' meeting, the 2 meter rule is NOT in affect.
_________________
One does not cease to play because One grows old.
One grows old because One ceases to play.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Brother Andre
Sultan of Swill


Joined: 26 Jul 2000
Posts: 3276
Location: room 207

PostPosted: Tue Feb 21, 2006 6:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

So does that mean if a disc in a tree, it's OB no matter what? Or does it mean you have some time to try to dislodge it first...?

Question

Brother
_________________
I used to rock and roll every night and party every day. Then it was every other day. Now I'm lucky to find half an hour each week in which to get funky...
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Rolly
King of Commentary


Joined: 11 Oct 2005
Posts: 9817
Location: South East Division

PostPosted: Tue Feb 21, 2006 7:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Brother, do you mean if you cant retrieve the disc do you get a one stroke penalty? (Lost disc). Even if its in the tree mocking you in plain sight??
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Captain Crunch
Trodden Teepad


Joined: 19 Nov 2005
Posts: 42
Location: North Bay, Ontario

PostPosted: Tue Feb 21, 2006 8:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

803.08 Disc Above the Playing Surface

If a disc comes to rest above the playing surface in a tree or other obstacle on the course, its lie shall be marked on the playing surface directly below it. If the point directly below the disc above the playing surface is an out-of-bounds area, the disc shall be declared out-of-bounds and marked and penalized in accordance with 803.09. If the playing surface directly below the disc is inside a tree or other solid obstacle, the lie shall be marked on the line of play immediately behind the tree or other solid obstacle. The director may designate a one throw penalty for discs that come to rest two meters or higher above the playing surface. The director may declare the two meter rule to be in effect for the entire course, or just for individual obstacles. (Sections B through D are only used if the two meter penalty is in effect.)

I would think the mocking disc would have to be considered lost if you cannot retrieve it. Much the same as if it was in the water and you could see it but due to depth or cold you cannot retrieve it.
_________________
One does not cease to play because One grows old.
One grows old because One ceases to play.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Brother Andre
Sultan of Swill


Joined: 26 Jul 2000
Posts: 3276
Location: room 207

PostPosted: Tue Feb 21, 2006 9:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rolly wrote:
Brother, do you mean if you cant retrieve the disc do you get a one stroke penalty? (Lost disc). Even if its in the tree mocking you in plain sight??


Be gentle with me...it wasn't even 7 a.m., I hadn't had any coffee...whatever...

big grin

Brother
_________________
I used to rock and roll every night and party every day. Then it was every other day. Now I'm lucky to find half an hour each week in which to get funky...
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
BigBrotherPenton
King of Commentary


Joined: 24 Jun 2002
Posts: 10042
Location: watching the paint dry

PostPosted: Tue Feb 21, 2006 10:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Captain Crunch wrote:
803.08 Disc Above the Playing Surface


I would think the mocking disc would have to be considered lost if you cannot retrieve it. Much the same as if it was in the water and you could see it but due to depth or cold you cannot retrieve it.


Cap'n,

803.11 Lost Disc
A. A disc shall be declared lost if the player cannot locate it within three minutes after arriving at the spot where it was last seen by the group or an official. Two players or an official must note when the timing of three minutes begins. All players of the group must, upon request, assist in searching for the disc for the full three minutes before the disc is declared lost. The disc is considered lost immediately upon the expiration of the three minute time limit.


If you can see it, it ain't lost.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Chuck Shick
Plaid Jacket Champion


Joined: 05 Sep 2000
Posts: 1897
Location: Chelsea

PostPosted: Tue Feb 21, 2006 10:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I once played a round where a guys disc was stuck way up a tree. Unreachable, but not lost.

His was the farthest shot so we played the other three discs and proceeded to the spot below the disc at a moderate pace - all the while giving the disc and the wind as much time as possible to blow the disc free. As he arrived under the disc, we started the watch for the 30 second delay of game. At about 22 seconds the disc came free, fell to his feet. He marked and got the shot off in time.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Captain Crunch
Trodden Teepad


Joined: 19 Nov 2005
Posts: 42
Location: North Bay, Ontario

PostPosted: Tue Feb 21, 2006 11:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have sent an email to the PDGA for clarification on this situation.

My feeling (which could be totally wrong) is that when they talk about "locating" your disc they mean that you can physically touch the disc and not just see it. There are water holes where you can see your disc but cannot get to it and the disc is considered lost. I don't know why the same would not apply to a disc in the tree.
_________________
One does not cease to play because One grows old.
One grows old because One ceases to play.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
BigBrotherPenton
King of Commentary


Joined: 24 Jun 2002
Posts: 10042
Location: watching the paint dry

PostPosted: Tue Feb 21, 2006 11:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Your disc is not considered lost when it's in the water, it's considered OB.

A. A disc shall be considered out-of-bounds only when it comes to rest and it is clearly and completely surrounded by the out-of-bounds area. A disc thrown in water shall be deemed to be at rest once it is floating or is moving only by the action of the water or the wind on the water. See section 803.03 F.

Definition of "locate":

lo·cate ( P ) Pronunciation Key (lkt, l-kt)
v. lo·cat·ed, lo·cat·ing, lo·cates
v. tr.
1 - To determine or specify the position or limits of: locate Albany on the map; managed to locate the site of the old artists' colony.
2 - To find by searching, examining, or experimenting: locate the source of error.
3 - To place at a certain location; station or situate: locate an agent in Rochester.


v 1: discover the location of; determine the place of; find by searching or examining; "Can you locate your cousins in the Midwest?"; "My search turned up nothing" [syn: turn up] 2: determine or indicate the place, site, or limits of, as if by an instrument or by a survey; "Our sense of sight enables us to locate objects in space"; "Locate the boundaries of the property" [syn: situate] 3: assign a location to; "The company located some of their agents in Los Angeles" [syn: place, site] 4: take up residence and become established; "The immigrants settled in the Midwest" [syn: settle]


Can you locate your cousins in the Midwest? You don't have to get your cousins in the Midwest. You just have to find them.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Captain Crunch
Trodden Teepad


Joined: 19 Nov 2005
Posts: 42
Location: North Bay, Ontario

PostPosted: Tue Feb 21, 2006 12:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's not always considered OB just because it is in the water! That is a decision the TD will make at the tournament. There are many situations where you can play your shot from the water if it is not deemed to be OB.
_________________
One does not cease to play because One grows old.
One grows old because One ceases to play.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
BigBrotherPenton
King of Commentary


Joined: 24 Jun 2002
Posts: 10042
Location: watching the paint dry

PostPosted: Tue Feb 21, 2006 1:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

All right then. This is new but if water is deemed to not be OB - which would be unusual, but I'll go with it - then you must play the disc from were it lies. So if you see it, then you gotta play from it. If you cannot play the disc then you declare it Unplayable:

803.06 Unplayable Lie
A. A player may declare his or her lie to be an unplayable lie. The player is the sole judge as to whether the lie is unplayable. The unplayable lie may be relocated to a new lie that is: (1) No closer to the hole, on the line of play and within five meters of the unplayable lie; or (2) The previous lie as evidenced by the marker disc or, if the marker disc has been moved, from an approximate lie as agreed to by the majority of the group or an official. The original throw plus one penalty throw are counted in the player’s score.


So the person would get a stroke penalty anyways, so why even consider it "lost" when by definition it isn't.

Four posts in and I'm already argueing with a newbie. big grin Fun stuff, eh, Cap'n. sly wink

This rule that makes the TD report all OB lines including Water is silly. Water should be OB, unless stated that it isn't. And it used to be a 2 stroke penalty when you declared it unplayable, or "unsafe". Whatever.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
BigBrotherPenton
King of Commentary


Joined: 24 Jun 2002
Posts: 10042
Location: watching the paint dry

PostPosted: Tue Feb 21, 2006 1:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If an unretreivable disc costs a stroke, I'll make a formal complaint to the PDGA for putting players in uneeded harms way.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
burjwahzeh
Overflow Overlord


Joined: 13 Dec 2005
Posts: 4460
Location: Somewhere where my mind is not.

PostPosted: Tue Feb 21, 2006 2:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

BigBrotherPenton wrote:
If an unretreivable disc costs a stroke, I'll make a formal complaint to the PDGA for putting players in uneeded harms way.


It doesn't and it is clear in the rules. You mark directly underneath it, and only take a stroke if the 2m rule is in effect. Leave the disc there if you want, or if you can't get to it. There is nothing in the rules that says you have to retrieve a disc.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Captain Crunch
Trodden Teepad


Joined: 19 Nov 2005
Posts: 42
Location: North Bay, Ontario

PostPosted: Tue Feb 21, 2006 2:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's not argueing it's just discussion. big grin This is fun stuff, picking apart the wording and rules, and just goes to show how much leeway there is in the interpretation of said rules.

I was looking throught the rules book and there is nowhere it actually mentions that water is OB. There is a section under "Marking the Lie" which talks about the disc coming to a stop on the water so I am assuming that if they are talking about marking the lie once it stops on the water then it would not be OB as why would you mark your lie OB?
_________________
One does not cease to play because One grows old.
One grows old because One ceases to play.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Flatball
Disc Jockey


Joined: 20 Aug 2002
Posts: 564
Location: "My disc went in the basket thing. What do I do now?"

PostPosted: Tue Feb 21, 2006 2:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

This is getting way too complicated.

I'm just not going to throw my discs into the trees.
_________________
"Think it. And sink it."
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
BigBrotherPenton
King of Commentary


Joined: 24 Jun 2002
Posts: 10042
Location: watching the paint dry

PostPosted: Tue Feb 21, 2006 3:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Captain Crunch wrote:

I was looking throught the rules book and there is nowhere it actually mentions that water is OB. There is a section under "Marking the Lie" which talks about the disc coming to a stop on the water so I am assuming that if they are talking about marking the lie once it stops on the water then it would not be OB as why would you mark your lie OB?


You are right, it is not in the new rule book. The old one though stated that water was OB. That's why I was quick to jump on the water=OB. Also, the old book stated that your disc came to rest once it was under the power of the water, because you would have waves pushing your disc to the shore, but really it came to rest in OB.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
burjwahzeh
Overflow Overlord


Joined: 13 Dec 2005
Posts: 4460
Location: Somewhere where my mind is not.

PostPosted: Tue Feb 21, 2006 3:54 pm    Post subject: Re: Disc in a Tree Reply with quote

BenW wrote:
I only ask because I wound up in a tree on #7 yesterday and wondered if I would have been penalized had it happened at the Capital Classic.


How's this for a response?

The rules of disc golf are intended to be fair. If you read something in the rules that sounds unfair, you are likely misinterpretting the rule, or missing the exception to the rule stated elsewhere in the rule book. The rules do not apply individually (unless stated explicitly). Rather, they for the code upon which the game is played.

So, why would the PDGA leave the 2m rule and the decision for its application up to the TD? Quite simply, to make the rules fair. Consider the following (familiar) case:

Applicaiton of the 2m rule: Camp Fortune vs. Jacques Cartier Park.

At CFDG, trees are a very real hazard on 16 of 18 holes. In most instances at CFDG, simply grazing a tree has a very undesirable effect: a shot stopped and caught in a tree is of similar consequence to simply hitting a tree and being left short, or worse, ending up "in jail". The application of the 2m rule at CFDG serves only as an additional (and almost random) consequence of what will in most cases end up being an already bad shot, and is therefore (IMO) unjust. Given the choice, the 2m rule should not apply.

The story at JCP is very different. At JCP, contact with a tree should only occur as a result of a wildly errant shot, especially when wide-open alleys are available for 16 of 18 holes. At JCP, the 2m rule can justly be applied, since the focus of play at JCP is on well-planned, well-controled shots, and contact with any tree above 2m is completely unnecessary. Such contact is more a sign of a poor shot decision, and if the disc remains in a tree and above 2m, the player should be prepared to accept a penalty stroke for their mistake.

In summary, the 2m rule should be applied when it makes sense to apply it. Simply being pro-2m or anti-2m is avoiding the entire purpose of the rules. It is there so that when it makes sense to use it, it can be used.

Cheers!
-P


Last edited by burjwahzeh on Tue Feb 21, 2006 3:55 pm; edited 1 time in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
BigBrotherPenton
King of Commentary


Joined: 24 Jun 2002
Posts: 10042
Location: watching the paint dry

PostPosted: Tue Feb 21, 2006 3:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ben wrote this on July 2nd. I hope he found an answer before today.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    ODGC Forums Forum Index -> Disc Golf Rules & Course Safety All times are GMT - 5 Hours
Goto page 1, 2  Next
Page 1 of 2

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum


Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group
RSS Feed for Latest Posts