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kenmlittle
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 17, 2013 7:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thumber wrote:
I think Grip is the best example of how forgiving the DG community can be. They hyped their bag, took pre-order money and then failed in a spectacular fashion. They were 6+ months late n delivery to the pre-orders and then the bags they did manage to crank out fell apart and had to be replaced 100%. I honestly cant believe they even survived that debacle.

One would think that a new DG company might observe that which has come before and noted their mistakes.

Like I said before, I wish Prodigy all the best but so far the results don't match the hype. I still just get a splash page on their site. I should be able to get info their. I am not looking for product. Just info. This is marketing 101.

Their facebook page is the only place to get info and that is pretty poor. They were supposed to stream a livecast last night. They didnt pull it off. They said they would stream after the fact. They didnt realize they had to save the video. The whole hype event was a complete bust. Not impressive.

If you are really good at throwing far it does not mean you know jack about how to run a business.


Yup. Exactly. These are people who haven't even read Marketing for Dummies, let alone taken Marketing 101. In a nut shell, if you're hoping for greatness from a DG company, you might be setting yourself up for heartbreak. smile

I really don't think we'll get past a lot of these crappy starts until a big corporation deems the DG market big enough to swoop in and buyout companies. I don't think that is in the near future, either. That will require a larger advertising base for non-DG companies through TV or big events.
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Holly D
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 17, 2013 8:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kenmlittle wrote:
Thumber wrote:
I think Grip is the best example of how forgiving the DG community can be. They hyped their bag, took pre-order money and then failed in a spectacular fashion. They were 6+ months late n delivery to the pre-orders and then the bags they did manage to crank out fell apart and had to be replaced 100%. I honestly cant believe they even survived that debacle.

One would think that a new DG company might observe that which has come before and noted their mistakes.

Like I said before, I wish Prodigy all the best but so far the results don't match the hype. I still just get a splash page on their site. I should be able to get info their. I am not looking for product. Just info. This is marketing 101.

Their facebook page is the only place to get info and that is pretty poor. They were supposed to stream a livecast last night. They didnt pull it off. They said they would stream after the fact. They didnt realize they had to save the video. The whole hype event was a complete bust. Not impressive.

If you are really good at throwing far it does not mean you know jack about how to run a business.


Yup. Exactly. These are people who haven't even read Marketing for Dummies, let alone taken Marketing 101. In a nut shell, if you're hoping for greatness from a DG company, you might be setting yourself up for heartbreak. smile

I really don't think we'll get past a lot of these crappy starts until a big corporation deems the DG market big enough to swoop in and buyout companies. I don't think that is in the near future, either. That will require a larger advertising base for non-DG companies through TV or big events.


I don't think they should get bonus points by virtue of being a DG company. I expect more from any business.
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Holly D
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 17, 2013 8:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Basically:

1. Celebrity endorsements
2. ???
3. PROFIT!

Is a shitty business model.

I'm sure they'll do fine with...whatever it is they're going to do. After all, there's only so many places we can buy from, I guess. I just don't see the need to coddle a company that hasn't done their due diligence.
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Jefrey A. Brother
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 17, 2013 8:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kenmlittle wrote:
Innova also pushes crappy discs like the Destrulcan in 2011/2012 where 1,000's of Destroyers were made without Destroyer tops.


This would explain A WHOLE LOT!

http://www.discgolfreview.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=16908&start=285

Crazy.

Quote:

Technology
... When plastic blends become more consistent and methods of cooling/finishing discs become more refined the better the end product will be.


But how will that tech be shared? Didn't they convince the PDGA to withhold tech info about their discs for propriety reasons? For this to work these companies will have to share their knowledge, right?

Quote:

We will also see folks experimenting with new plastic blends, molds, etc. I'm excited that a lot of these new companies will be making clones/counterparts to Teebirds, Firebirds, Rocs, etc. Innova has bastardized a lot of their best molds and I'd love to get my hands on some clones of these discs in better plastics.


How do you know what's a clone of what? Do you know of any Firebird clones on the market?

Quote:

EDIT: Removed smiley from 18 + )


I freakin hate that.
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Mike McCormick
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 17, 2013 9:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

remove
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burjwahzeh
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 18, 2013 12:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jefrey A. Brother wrote:
Jefrey A. Brother wrote:
Nikko explains it a bit more (my eyes hurt after reading that page).

Sorry I missed that. Well, maybe not that sorry. Does this guy ever need an editor.
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kenmlittle
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 18, 2013 12:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Holly D wrote:
Basically:

1. Celebrity endorsements
2. ???
3. PROFIT!

Is a shitty business model.

I'm sure they'll do fine with...whatever it is they're going to do. After all, there's only so many places we can buy from, I guess. I just don't see the need to coddle a company that hasn't done their due diligence.


A business minded individual who has done their due diligence doesn't start a disc golf company.
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Jefrey A. Brother
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 18, 2013 8:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

kenmlittle wrote:

A business minded individual who has done their due diligence doesn't start a disc golf company.


Point.
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Ken Darcovich
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 18, 2013 9:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

kenmlittle wrote:

A business minded individual who has done their due diligence doesn't start a disc golf company.


A disc golf enthusiast who has convinced themselves that their unique vision of the disc golf landscape is the equivalent of the Douglas Adams "42", may become giddy enough to gesture at being business-minded, in order to cobble together the resources to temporarily realise their ambitions.

The above seems to be the "business model" that we're witnessing at present.

In the 90s, Discraft and Innova (and Lightning) were very low key. They sold discs and baskets by mail order.

.
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briggs
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 18, 2013 9:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

At this point in the discussion, my only real question is why hasn't Holly pointed out that they completely ripped off the star trek insignia for their logo?
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burjwahzeh
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 18, 2013 10:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ken Darcovich wrote:
kenmlittle wrote:

A business minded individual who has done their due diligence doesn't start a disc golf company.


A disc golf enthusiast who has convinced themselves that their unique vision of the disc golf landscape is the equivalent of the Douglas Adams "42", may become giddy enough to gesture at being business-minded, in order to cobble together the resources to temporarily realise their ambitions.

The above seems to be the "business model" that we're witnessing at present.

Ken Darcovich, your business model description is a home run. You did it in 47 words.

Here's a 22 word version:

A Disc Golf enthusiast believes in something that nobody else can see, and risks it all to try and make it happen.

Here's an attempt with 10 words:

Everything seemed so clear when I was in my twenties.

Come to think of it, what a great opportunity for haiku:

Disc Golf is spreading
Here is our chance for success
Damn the torpedoes

And limericks:
Nikko did numbers by hand
And offered his friends each ten grand.
Everyone signed
'cause the future is blind
and there's disc golf all over the land.
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Jefrey A. Brother
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 18, 2013 10:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

This discussion has really opened up my naive eyes.

Innova, for one year, had a Vulcan top on a Destroyer bottom and sold it as a Destroyer. Now apparently it's the TeeDevil. I thought I was going nuts the past 2 seasons trying to find a Destroyer that felt like my old ones.

I checked my Destroyer stock, and all my old ones are real, and the one that Darco gave me is a Frankenstein. I agree with you Ken, the 2008 Star plastic is my favourite of all time (though I did love the CE back in the day too). For the past two seasons, I gave back every Destroyer Twirly ordered for me. I couldn't understand how they were so different from my favourite ones.

Is this how they make new discs? They just mix and match tops and bottoms? Holy crap. That's scary. When John Mann told me the Optimizer was an Eagle top and Roc bottom, I didn't really get it. :shakehead: Now I do.

So this is how Prodigy can make 4 discs with the same rim, but have different tops, therefore making a different disc. Neat. They could make families of discs. That would be different. I'd like that.

Are there other Innova discs that have the same bottoms but different tops? I used to always think the Eagle and Firebird were similiar feels and would routinely call them the same "family" of discs.
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burjwahzeh
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 18, 2013 10:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jefrey A. Brother wrote:

Are there other Innova discs that have the same bottoms but different tops? I used to always think the Eagle and Firebird were similiar feels and would routinely call them the same "family" of discs.

TL is a teebird top and a modified bottom molding with no notch, or so I'm told.

That is what they do. They make a mould (which likely costs around $15k for one of the top or the bottom), and they just start pairing it up.
There's no further thought to it, other than to just get some new art, think up a name that will appeal to a teenager, and just start pressing plastic. It really is sad how bad these guys are at what they do.

I had no idea that they were f#cking around with different tops and bottoms for the same model of disc. Is this true? If so, it's unacceptable to the point of a complete loss of confidence.

Are you willing to tell someone, "get two of these", when they could very well be different? You can't say, "oh, that disc flies this way" when it likely won't.
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Jefrey A. Brother
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 18, 2013 10:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

burjwahzeh wrote:
Jefrey A. Brother wrote:

Are there other Innova discs that have the same bottoms but different tops? I used to always think the Eagle and Firebird were similiar feels and would routinely call them the same "family" of discs.

TL is a teebird top and a leopard bottom, or vice versa.



But those were expressed in their name. Same as the Firebird FL and FX. But how many others are hidden swinger discs?
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kenmlittle
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 18, 2013 10:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jefrey A. Brother wrote:
This discussion has really opened up my naive eyes.

Innova, for one year, had a Vulcan top on a Destroyer bottom and sold it as a Destroyer. Now apparently it's the TeeDevil. I thought I was going nuts the past 2 seasons trying to find a Destroyer that felt like my old ones.

I checked my Destroyer stock, and all my old ones are real, and the one that Darco gave me is a Frankenstein. I agree with you Ken, the 2008 Star plastic is my favourite of all time (though I did love the CE back in the day too). For the past two seasons, I gave back every Destroyer Twirly ordered for me. I couldn't understand how they were so different from my favourite ones.

Is this how they make new discs? They just mix and match tops and bottoms? Holy crap. That's scary. When John Mann told me the Optimizer was an Eagle top and Roc bottom, I didn't really get it. :shakehead: Now I do.

So this is how Prodigy can make 4 discs with the same rim, but have different tops, therefore making a different disc. Neat. They could make families of discs. That would be different. I'd like that.

Are there other Innova discs that have the same bottoms but different tops? I used to always think the Eagle and Firebird were similiar feels and would routinely call them the same "family" of discs.


That's how most disc are made at Innova. Especially with Dismania/Millenium. Most of the Dismania discs have an Innova bottom with a Discmania top. The best example is the PD. Firebird bottom, Dismania understable/neutral top. The most common shared molding parts are the tops for a lot of Innova fairway drivers. FL = Firebird with different bottom, TL, Eagle-L, etc.

But you will find many similarities from disc to disc in named families. Sometimes it is just the flight path/speed, sometimes it is the actual molds.
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Holly D
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 18, 2013 10:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

briggs wrote:
At this point in the discussion, my only real question is why hasn't Holly pointed out that they completely ripped off the star trek insignia for their logo?


I didn't want to derail until page six or so.
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kenmlittle
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 18, 2013 10:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

burjwahzeh wrote:
Jefrey A. Brother wrote:

Are there other Innova discs that have the same bottoms but different tops? I used to always think the Eagle and Firebird were similiar feels and would routinely call them the same "family" of discs.

TL is a teebird top and a leopard bottom, or vice versa.


Sorry, but wrong. This is the most common misconception with the "L" but it does not mean Leopard bottom. It instead is a modified bottom molding with no notch.
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Holly D
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 18, 2013 11:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

kenmlittle wrote:
Holly D wrote:
Basically:

1. Celebrity endorsements
2. ???
3. PROFIT!

Is a shitty business model.

I'm sure they'll do fine with...whatever it is they're going to do. After all, there's only so many places we can buy from, I guess. I just don't see the need to coddle a company that hasn't done their due diligence.


A business minded individual who has done their due diligence doesn't start a disc golf company.


And we should reward that?
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kenmlittle
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 18, 2013 11:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Holly D wrote:
kenmlittle wrote:
Holly D wrote:
Basically:

1. Celebrity endorsements
2. ???
3. PROFIT!

Is a shitty business model.

I'm sure they'll do fine with...whatever it is they're going to do. After all, there's only so many places we can buy from, I guess. I just don't see the need to coddle a company that hasn't done their due diligence.


A business minded individual who has done their due diligence doesn't start a disc golf company.


And we should reward that?


I don't follow. What is your alternative scenario? Drop in a high value executive with experience in marketing, injection molding and sports sponsorship to a small company with annual revenue projections under $1MM?
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Holly D
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 18, 2013 11:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

kenmlittle wrote:
Holly D wrote:
kenmlittle wrote:
Holly D wrote:
Basically:

1. Celebrity endorsements
2. ???
3. PROFIT!

Is a shitty business model.

I'm sure they'll do fine with...whatever it is they're going to do. After all, there's only so many places we can buy from, I guess. I just don't see the need to coddle a company that hasn't done their due diligence.


A business minded individual who has done their due diligence doesn't start a disc golf company.


And we should reward that?


I don't follow. What is your alternative scenario? Drop in a high value executive with experience in marketing, injection molding and sports sponsorship to a small company with annual revenue projections under $1MM?


Now you're just getting into hyperbole.

How about: meet with some actual small business owners.
Involve people other than your disc golf buddies in your venture.
Read a business book.
Demonstrate that you are learning from the mistakes of others, not just repeating them.
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