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burjwahzeh
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 09, 2011 9:37 am    Post subject: Using a caddy for support during a shot. Reply with quote

Yes, it's actually been discussed on the PDGA board.

sarcastic eye roll

If your stomach can handle it:
http://www.pdga.com/discussion/showthread.php?t=35048
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Rolly
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 09, 2011 9:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm guessing......no you cant do it, although i bet the specific situation is not in the rules,
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Jefrey A. Brother
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 09, 2011 9:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Some dude said this:

Quote:
This seems intuitively wrong whether technically allowed or not. No player should be allowed to be physically assisted by another person in making a shot.


I agree. People know this isn't right. They must.
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burjwahzeh
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 09, 2011 9:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have to hand it to some of these guys for their "logical" approach.

Apparently, because you're allowed to put a towel under your knee to make a shot, you're allowed to have a caddy hold your hand (or your shirt, or whatever) while you make a shot.

paranoid

Of course! idea! A towel is the same thing as another person at a PDGA disc golf event: They're both smeared with dirt, and neither has a shirt on.
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Thumber
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 09, 2011 9:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I would call this in a tourny. I don't know what rule I would quote, but I would call it anyway....ridiculous

Penton I'll e more than happy to hold your hand at the IB......Of course I may slip and push you at a very inopportune moment....but I'm there for ya buddy
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burjwahzeh
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 09, 2011 9:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Okay, why is nobody trying to equate a caddy with an artificial device?

You can't use artificial devices to aid your throw (802.04). This rule makes it clear that a towel or glove or certain other things are allowed, but it specifically prohibits things that extend your reach or change how you throw. Having a caddy hold you up is a change fundamental to the 802.04 rule. Case closed.
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Roxie
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 09, 2011 9:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The only support a Caddy should be providing is moral support. What a bunch of jack arses.
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burjwahzeh
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 09, 2011 9:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Coming to an Ice Bowl near PDGA HQ:


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burjwahzeh
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 09, 2011 10:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Roxie wrote:
The only support a Caddy should be providing is moral support. What a bunch of jack arses.

That's kind'a how I was feeling about the whole thing.
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Jefrey A. Brother
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 09, 2011 10:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

This guy came up with a SnapChing kinda use of the rules to argue against it:

Quote:
803.01 General.

A. Players shall play the course as they find it.

If you let someone support you as you throw, you’re changing the course from “as you find it.” That change of the course may expand your strategy options, your range of motion, your confidence or comfort to stand and throw, and your opportunity to score low.

Under the rules of play, the only penalty you can get for not playing the course as you find it would be DQ for cheating: 804.05A(3).


803.04 Stance, subsequent to teeing off.
C. [On putts within 10M] The player must demonstrate full control of balance before advancing toward the hole.

If the other person’s support aids your balance after you release your putt, it may bring into question whether you are demonstrating full control of balance before you advance toward the hole.


803.05 Obstacles and relief.
A. A player must choose the stance which results in the least movement of any obstacle. It is legal for a player’s throwing motion to cause incidental movement of an obstacle.

The first sentence uses the word “stance” in an unclear way. As I’ve suggested on the “2011 Rules Update” thread (Post # 86), 803.05A is unclear about whether your stance in relation to obstacles is your body’s position at the instant you release your flight, or your body’s position just before you start your throwing motion.

If the latter is true (which is how disc golfers usually play) then in Chuck’s scenario, the thrower will be okay if, just before the throwing motion starts, his stance isn’t moving the supporting person at all. Then if the thrower cause “incidental movement” (whatever the heck that it) of the supporter’s position during the throwing motion, no problem.

But if the former is true, then the thrower is not allowed to shift his caddy’s position at all via the throwing motion, because that would violate the “least movement” restriction at the instant of release.


803.07 Interference.C. Any player who consciously alters the course of a thrown disc . . . shall receive two penalty throws, without a warning, if observed by any two players or an official.

Competition Manual Rule 3.5 Carts and Caddies.B. A player’s caddie is subject to all items with in the PDGA Rules of Play.

C. Misconduct by a caddie may subject the player and caddy to disqualification and/or suspension.

If a player (not caddy) supports you as you throw, and if you throw a different flight path than you would have thrown without the support, then, logically, the supporting player earns a two-stroke penalty for altering the course of your thrown disc.

If CM 3.5B makes your caddy a “player” in regard to 803.07, then your supporting caddy would be doing the same violation as a supporting player – i.e., altering your flight – which probably qualifies as caddy misconduct under CM 3.5C.


804.05 Disqualification and suspension.
A(3) Cheating: a willful attempt to circumvent the rules of play.

If you let someone support you, to aid your throw, are you cheating? That’s up to the TD to decide.

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burjwahzeh
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 09, 2011 10:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jefrey A. Brother wrote:
This guy came up with a SnapChing kinda use of the rules to argue against it:

Quote:
803.01 General.

A. Players shall play the course as they find it.

If you let someone support you as you throw, you’re changing the course from “as you find it.” That change of the course may expand your strategy options, your range of motion, your confidence or comfort to stand and throw, and your opportunity to score low.

Under the rules of play, the only penalty you can get for not playing the course as you find it would be DQ for cheating: 804.05A(3).

Snapching. sarcastic eye roll

Contrary to this oh-so enlightened pontification, this does nothing to "change the course". How does the course change at all? It doesn't.

It's fun watching the ants bumping into each other as they try and figure this one out.
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Jefrey A. Brother
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 09, 2011 12:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
OK, here's the way I will use this section of the Chuck Kennedy Rulebook. I am 73.5" tall & have a tippy-toe-to-extended-fingers length of 97.16". My putter has a diameter of 8.35". The height of the upper wire of the bucket of a standard target is 29.5", and the outer rim of the bucket is 13.5" from the pole. Assuming that gravity will cause the disc to drop into the basket if 51% is extended over the rim of the bucket & the disc is released, I (with the CK-endorsed assistance of a sufficiently tall "helper" or a chain of "helpers") can safely execute a drop-in on putts up to 110.35", that is, 9 feet 2.35".


Quote:
Vegan, tall players already have a reach advantage in this sport in a variety of situations which hasn't been restricted by the rules so why is your example a problem?


Quote:
I'm not bemoaning tall players' advantage (nice red herring attempt), merely pointing out that your rule allows for drop-ins from over 9" for a slightly-above-average size player. Assuming the average player is 69" & has a tippy-toe-to-finger length of 89" (probably pretty conservative considering the very-much-mostly male makeup of the population of disc golfers), and that the average putter diameter is 8.35", an average player taking full advantage of your "helper" nonsense will have 100% drop-in ability from 101.79", nearly eight and a half feet. Everyone should take advantage of this "rule" on windy days & any other time the 8-footer is causing some knee-quaking.


Quote:
Players already can start their putting motion with their non-stance foot in front of their mark and lift it just before releasing the putt. That would seem much more effective for getting close to the target than your contrived example. BTW, I've been passing along an RC interpretation where support from another person seems to be allowed, not my interpretation. I'm okay with it but would prefer a more explicit notation in the rules regarding the rare option.


Quote:
It would only seem so to one who is a dolt. Do a simple test with the "crane" putting technique you describe (without, of course, using a "helper" to assist you in maintaining balance behind the lie after the release) & see your effective drop-in (not short, easy throw, but 100% drop-in) range. I guarantee it will be WAY less that 8.5 feet.


Quote:
It may be a little less effective distance-wise but I suspect your chain of arm linked supporters might be judged "subverting the rules" and disallowed. If your diagram helps persuade the RC that support by a person(s) not be allowed then fine. I would think all support behind the lie would need to be disallowed including any immovable obstacles on the course that wouldn't be considered a "playing surface" like bigger tree trunks, fences or walls. Touching them is okay based on "least movement" but using them for support not allowed. Another judgment call - touching versus supporting - sometimes would be required in tight quarters


Wow.
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Rolly
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 09, 2011 12:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Could you imagine being at a tourny far away, on a card of 3 with 2 other guys you dont know, and they start pulling the supporting the other player stuff like above? Man that would be some funny shite,
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C-Kyle
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 09, 2011 1:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

So could the supporting player be penalized for intentionally affecting the throw?
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Roxie
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 09, 2011 1:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I can't even believe this is being discussed Confused
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Rolly
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 09, 2011 1:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think they could use the # of dumb ideas generated on the PDGA forum as an indicator of the USA unemployment levels.
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John Pytel
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 09, 2011 2:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Roxie wrote:
I can't even believe this is being discussed Confused


Here or at the PDGA??? sarcastic eye roll
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Roxie
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 09, 2011 2:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

PDGA. Here it is good for a laugh.
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Andrew
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 09, 2011 2:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I am going to say this should be allowed. Use your caddy for support when throwing! As a dude of 6 feet 5 inches, I would love to have a 300 pound caddy who I could hold for support to lean over my lie. I could probably get my throwing hand an extra 4 feet closer to the basket.
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Jefrey A. Brother
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 09, 2011 3:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Andrew wrote:
I am going to say this should be allowed. Use your caddy for support when throwing! As a dude of 6 feet 5 inches, I would love to have a 300 pound caddy who I could hold for support to lean over my lie. I could probably get my throwing hand an extra 4 feet closer to the basket.


Wear an extra long long-sleeve shirt and maybe even 6 feet!
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