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Jefrey A. Brother
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 22, 2010 10:29 am    Post subject: 803.05 Obstacles and Relief Reply with quote

803.05 Obstacles and Relief

A. Obstacles to a Stance or Throwing Motion: With the exception of casual obstacles to a stance as described in 803.05 B, a player is not allowed to move any obstacle on the course. No relief is granted from park equipment (such as signs, trash cans, picnic tables, etc), which is considered part of the course. A player is allowed to request that other people remove themselves and/or their belongings from the player's stance or line of play. A player must choose the stance which results in the least movement of any obstacle. Once a legal stance is taken, the player may not move an obstacle in any way in order to make room for a throwing motion. It is legal for a player's throwing motion to cause incidental movement of an obstacle.

B. Casual Obstacles to a Stance: A player may obtain relief only from the following obstacles that are in the stance or run-up area: casual water, loose leaves or debris, broken branches no longer connected to a tree, motor vehicles, harmful insects or animals, players' equipment, people, or any item or area specifically designated by the director before the round. The player must first attempt to remove the obstacle. If it is impractical to move the obstacle, the player's lie may be relocated to the nearest lie which is no closer to the hole, is on the line of play, and is not more than five meters from the original lie, as agreed to by a majority of the group or an official (unless greater casual relief is announced by the director).

C. Optional Relief: A player may declare that he or she is taking optional relief. The lie may then be relocated to a new lie that is no closer to the hole, and on the line of play. The original throw plus one penalty throw are counted in the player's score.

D. In situations where it is unclear if an object may be moved or other relief obtained, it shall be determined by a majority of the group or an official.

E. A player shall receive one penalty throw, without a warning, for violation of an obstacle or relief rule.

F. A player who purposely damages anything on the course shall receive two penalty throws, without a warning, if observed by two or more players of the group or an official. The player may also be disqualified from the tournament, in accordance with Section 3.3 of the Competition Manual.

The Old Rule wrote:
803.05 Obstacles and Relief

A. Obstacles to a Stance or Throwing Motion: Players must choose a stance which results in the least movement of any part of any obstacle except as allowed for casual obstacles by 803.05 C. (Obstacle: Any feature of the course that may impede any aspect of play.) No relief is granted from park equipment (such as signs, trash cans, picnic tables, etc.) as they are considered part of the course. Once a legal stance is taken, a player may not move an obstacle (or hold it back or bend it) in order to make room for a throwing motion. It is legal for a player's throwing motion to make incidental movement of an obstacle.

B. Obstacles Between the Lie and Hole: A player may not move, alter, bend, break, or hold back any part of any obstacle, including casual obstacles, between the lie and the hole, with one exception: A player may move obstacles between the lie and the hole that became a factor during the round, such as spectators, players' equipment, open gates, or branches that fell during the round. Where it is not known if an obstacle has become a factor during a round, it shall not be moved. It is legal
for a player's throwing motion to make incidental movement of an obstacle.

C. Casual Obstacles: A player may obtain relief only from the following obstacles: casual water, loose leaves or debris, broken branches no longer connected to a tree, motor vehicles, harmful insects or animals, players' equipment, spectators, or any item or area specifically
designated by the director before the round. Obstacles may not be moved if any part of the obstacle is between the lie and the hole. The type of relief a player may obtain is based on the location of the obstacle and is limited as follows:
(1) Casual obstacles between the lie and the hole: A player may move obstacles which became a factor during the round as described by 803.05 B.

(2) Casual obstacles to stance or throwing motion: The player must first attempt to remove the obstacle unless a portion of the obstacle is also between the lie and the hole. If it is impractical to move the obstacle, or if a portion of the obstacle is also between the lie and the hole, the player's lie may be relocated to the nearest lie which is no closer to the hole; is on the line of play; and is not more than five meters from the original lie, as agreed to by a majority of the group or an official (unless greater casual relief is announced by the director). Alternatively, the player may declare an unplayable lie and proceed in accordance with 803.06.

(3) Casual obstacles to a run-up: The player may move the obstacle provided no part of the obstacle is between the lie and the hole.. No other relief is provided.

D. In situations where it is unclear if an object may be moved or other relief obtained, it shall be determined by a majority of the group or an official.

E. A player shall receive one penalty throw, without a warning, for violation of an obstacle or relief rule.

F. A player who purposely damages anything on the course shall receive two penalty throws, without a warning, if observed by two or more players of the group or an official. The player may also be disqualified from the tournament, in accordance with section 804.05 A (2).


Last edited by Jefrey A. Brother on Wed Dec 22, 2010 10:30 am; edited 1 time in total
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 22, 2010 10:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

PDGA wrote:
The relief rules have been simplified. You can't move anything unless it's in your stance. If something is both in your stance and between your lie and the hole, you can move it. You can always ask people to move themselves or their stuff if they are in your way.

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 22, 2010 10:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

C. Optional Relief: A player may declare that he or she is taking optional relief. The lie may then be relocated to a new lie that is no closer to the hole, and on the line of play. The original throw plus one penalty throw are counted in the player's score.


The Old Rules wrote:
803.06 A. A player may declare his or her lie to be an unplayable lie. The player is the sole judge as to whether the lie is unplayable. The unplayable lie may be relocated to a new lie that is: (1) No closer to the hole, on the line of play and within five meters of the unplayable lie; or (2) The previous lie as evidenced by the marker disc or, if the marker disc has been moved, from an approximate lie as agreed to by the majority of the group or an official. The original throw plus one penalty throw are counted in the player's score.

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 24, 2010 1:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

OBSTACLES AND RELIEF: 803.05
Significant changes here. A player is not allowed to move any obstacle on the course with the exception of casual obstacles to a stance listed below. A player is allowed to request that other people remove themselves and/or their belongings from the player's stance or line of play. This includes spectators, umbrellas, golf bags, chairs, etc…

Casual obstacles as in current rules – casual water, loose leaves or debris, broken branches no longer connected to a tree, motor vehicles, harmful insects or animals, players' equipment, people, or any item or area specifically designated by the director before the round – can be moved if they are in the player’s stance or run-up, even if part of the item like a branch is in front of the lie.

If the casual item can’t be moved, like water or a bee hive, the player may take free relief up to 5m back on the line of play like before. If players require additional relief beyond 5m, they may invoke either the new Optional Relief rule (803.05C) and go back on the line of play as far as they desire with a one-throw penalty. Or, decide to declare the Optional Rethrow discussed previously and return to their original lie and throw again with a one-throw penalty.
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PostPosted: Mon May 02, 2011 10:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

B. Casual Obstacles to a Stance: A player may obtain relief only from the following obstacles that are in the stance or run-up area: casual water, loose leaves or debris, broken branches no longer connected to a tree, motor vehicles, harmful insects or animals, players' equipment, people, or any item or area specifically designated by the director before the round. The player must first attempt to remove the obstacle. If it is impractical to move the obstacle, the player's lie may be relocated to the nearest lie which is no closer to the hole, is on the line of play, and is not more than five meters from the original lie, as agreed to by a majority of the group or an official (unless greater casual relief is announced by the director).
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Holly D
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 06, 2011 10:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

So, what about poison ivy?
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Thumber
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 06, 2011 10:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Holly D wrote:
So, what about poison ivy?


I am pretty allergic to the PI and would take relief if I was in it
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 06, 2011 10:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thumber wrote:
Holly D wrote:
So, what about poison ivy?


I am pretty allergic to the PI and would take relief if I was in it


But do you get a penalty?
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 06, 2011 10:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Holly D wrote:
Thumber wrote:
Holly D wrote:
So, what about poison ivy?


I am pretty allergic to the PI and would take relief if I was in it


But do you get a penalty?


I wouldn't take a penalty. I would consider the situation the same as an active bee hive
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 06, 2011 10:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thumber wrote:
Holly D wrote:
Thumber wrote:
Holly D wrote:
So, what about poison ivy?


I am pretty allergic to the PI and would take relief if I was in it


But do you get a penalty?


I wouldn't take a penalty. I would consider the situation the same as an active bee hive


I would say the same, but the rules technically only identify fauna.
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 06, 2011 10:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thumber wrote:
Holly D wrote:
Thumber wrote:
Holly D wrote:
So, what about poison ivy?


I am pretty allergic to the PI and would take relief if I was in it


But do you get a penalty?


I wouldn't take a penalty. I would consider the situation the same as an active bee hive
This was discussed to death on the PDGA forums about six months ago, and I believe that the general consensus was that you would take a penalty, as Poison Ivy is not a "harmful animal or insect". Unless the TD states specifically that there is casual relief from Posion Ivy, you should be taking a penalty stroke, as it is in not included in 803.05 B.
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 06, 2011 10:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

That would violate the spirit of the rule which is to protect player health
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 06, 2011 11:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The TD needs to made aware of the flora that may be dangerous and announce the relief in the players' meeting. Players should take some ownership in the situation and inform the TD before the players' meeting too, I think.
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 06, 2011 11:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Bluebonnets and other protected areas

Question: "I played Disc golf in San Antonio during the Spring Months of 97. The beauty of it all, had to be the scenic surroundings. Texas Bluebonnets were everywhere. My concern was what to do when my disc fell into these flowers, which in fact, was every much apart of the fairways. In the state of Texas, it is illegal to pick or trample on these flowers. Making every effort not to do so, I would walk among these flowers to retrieve my disc. In this case, what is the proper play? 1 throw penalty? Do I select to drop? I'm sure this question needs to be addressed by the sanctioned PDGA Officials. It could create real problems for those who play the game during Spring in Texas."

Response: The question can be boiled down to: How can my disc be retrieved and the lie subsequently played from when it lands in an area of the course that has sensitive, protected, endangered, dangerous (poison ivy) or valuable foliage?
Applicable Rules: 803.05 (Obstacles and Relief), 803.06 (Unplayable Lie), 803.09 (Out-of-Bounds, 804.01 Special Conditions

Discussion: This situation is a good one that COULD be specifically addressed by the rules (though the rules already "cover" this), however there are probably better ways to handle the situation.

We are not sure that there is a "proper play" as far as the PDGA rules go. Like so many "rules issues" this example would appear to be more of a course design problem AND a Course Pro/Tournament Director issue than one involving the PDGA rules. Simply throwing into the Bluebonnets would also be illegal. It sounds as if the course should be re-designed. If the Bluebonnets are protected by the State of Texas then the course SHOULD NOT force one to play near (much less on) a protected species. Or alternatively, the course could be closed while the Bluebonnets are in bloom (although it would seem that the plants could be damaged year-round). That having been stated, what do we do IF the course DOES force us to play near the Bluebonnets?

Though the specific issue of "bluebonnets" (or poison ivy) are not specifically covered in the rules, the rules do cover this situation. The rules do address casual and out-of-bounds areas, which is the direction this question takes us. Some general concepts first: The rules do not make particular areas out-of-bounds (OB). Tournament Directors do. So the paved road or the water hazard or even the bluebonnets are not automatically OB. They become OB when the TD defines them as OB. (In casual play the local customs are used).

For this reason it is a good idea to check with the TD if you know of any questionable areas on the course. TD's should make it a point to include course OB and casual relief areas in a player's meeting. Some top tournaments (and their TDs!) include course maps and OB areas on the scorecards. When this is combined with clearly delineated OB lines (string, tape, paint, etc) a TD has gone a long way to preventing controversy. All areas that MAY produce controversy SHOULD be marked off clearly... and the markings should be in place several days before the tournament is to begin. This will allow traveling players to learn of these areas BEFORE the tourney starts!

So the TD in bluebonnet country has a decision how to handle the discs which encounter the bluebonnets. The TD will decide whether to 1) make no special provision, 2) declare bluebonnet fields to be OB or, 3) declare bluebonnet fields to be casual relief. If the TD chooses option 1, then there are no penalties for venturing into the bluebonnets and players have no idea as to how to play their shots (TD error, not a rules problem). If the TD chooses option 2, then penalties and subsequent placement of the lie are covered 803.09 (Out-of-Bounds). If the TD chooses option 3, then there are no penalties (unless the player chooses to declare an unsafe lie) and subsequent placement of the lie are covered under 803.05 (Obstacles and Relief).

The rules also currently provide for situations such as this. 804.01 (Special Conditions) allows the tournament director to specify "Rules governing special conditions that may exist on the course" such as Bluebonnets. That was the whole purpose for the inclusion of the "Special Conditions" rule. (One caveat though, the special conditions CAN NOT conflict with the PDGA rules.) In this instance the TD would announce (prior to the start of the tourney) exactly how to handle the “bluebonnet scenario.” (In effect, coupling option from the above scenario with the Special Conditions rule!)

Amazingly, a precedent has been set. In the days of Boylan Family Farms (A Christmas tree farm) , the Laurel Springs Open and the Amateur National Championships...property owner (And TD) Bill Boylan defined the special condition (his Christmas trees) and detailed how one should obtain relief from the trees. No penalty but stay on the line of play. It worked exceedingly well BECAUSE the TD thought about the situation in advance AND it was clearly explained in the players meeting!

Conclusion: In summary, the bluebonnet issue is like so many other “rules issues”, the “trouble” could be avoided by proper course design, a little extra work on the TD’s part, and through a reasonable and fair application of the existing PDGA Rule Book! PLEASE do everyone a favor...READ THE RULES!

Other Comments: Obviously, the above comments are all well and good...BUT, what if the TD failed to do his job? What IF, the player finds herself in the bluebonnets and does not know what to do? Some of the possibilities are not fun, such as breaking a state law or taking a penalty. We don't want a player to be penalized by her knowledge of and respect for the law. What to do? The player should inform her group, stop play, find the TD (or course official) and request a ruling. (Since the group has halted play while waiting on a ruling, other groups should be allowed to play through!) The TD's best bet would be to declare the bluebonnet area a casual relief area (under 803.05 C) for the rest of the round (since presumably other groups have played the hole in ignorance of the laws regarding bluebonnet protection). It should then remain casual relief for the rest of the tournament.


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 06, 2011 11:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The above was taken from the PDGA Rules FAQ.
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 21, 2012 2:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
803.05 Obstacles and Relief

A. Obstacles to a Stance or Throwing Motion: With the exception of casual obstacles to a stance as described in 803.05 B, a player is not allowed to move any obstacle on the course. No relief is granted from park equipment (such as signs, trash cans, picnic tables, etc), which is considered part of the course. A player is allowed to request that other people remove themselves and/or their belongings from the player's stance or line of play. A player must choose the stance which results in the least movement of any obstacle. Once a legal stance is taken, the player may not move an obstacle in any way in order to make room for a throwing motion. It is legal for a player's throwing motion to cause incidental movement of an obstacle.


Quote:
803.04 Stance, Subsequent to Teeing Off

...

D. A player must choose the stance that will result in the least movement of any part of any obstacle that is a permanent or integral part of the course.


Quote:
Obstacle: Any feature of the course that may impede any aspect of play.

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 21, 2012 2:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
QA16: Using an Object Behind the Lie for Support

Q: Can I hold onto a branch or other object behind my lie while putting?

A: Holding on to something behind your lie is not prohibited by the rules, provided that the object is in-bounds. It also must not be moved, since you are required to take the stance that results in the least movement of obstacles on the course. You are not allowed to hold onto another person for support, as that person is not part of the course.
Applicable rules: 803.04

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 22, 2012 8:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

As discussed on Saturday:

Quote:
If it is impractical to move the obstacle, the player's lie may be relocated to the nearest lie which is no closer to the hole, is on the line of play, and is not more than five meters from the original lie, as agreed to by a majority of the group or an official (unless greater casual relief is announced by the director).

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 24, 2013 2:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

This one came up on the weekend:

Quote:
803.01 Obstacles And Relief

Obstacles to a Stance or Throwing Motion: With the exception of casual obstacles to a stance as described below, a player is not allowed to move any obstacle on the course. No relief is granted from park equipment (such as signs, trash cans, or picnic tables), which is considered to be part of the course. A player is allowed to request that other people remove themselves and/or their belongings from the player's stance or line of play.

Casual Obstacles to a Stance: A player may obtain relief only from the following obstacles that are on or behind the lie: casual water, loose leaves or debris, broken branches no longer connected to a tree, motor vehicles, harmful insects or animals, players' equipment, people, or any item or area specifically designated by the Director before the round. To obtain relief, the player must remove the obstacle if it is practical to do so. If it is impractical to move the obstacle, the player's lie may be relocated to the nearest lie which is no closer to the target, is on the line of play, and is not more than five meters from the original lie (unless greater casual relief is announced by the Director).

Course equipment may always be restored to its proper working order, including the clearing of obstacles.

A player shall receive one penalty throw, without a warning, for violation of an obstacle or relief rule.

A player who purposely damages any part of the course shall receive two penalty throws, without a warning. The player may also be disqualified from the tournament, in accordance with Section 3.3 of the Competition Manual.


It's 5m from your lie not the obstacle.
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