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Rolly
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 21, 2010 6:28 am    Post subject: OMPL V-Discussion Reply with quote

First Topic:
What to do with those that dont play there games.

Last year I initiated a mando 4/6 games completed to qualify for the playoffs. This was to get people to play and to eliminate the possibility of a person playing 0 games at all in the normal season to win the entire thing.

Should we keep this? Make it 6/6? etc? If a person does not complete 4/6 games should they move to the bottom of the table when calculating playoff positions an final standings? I cant respond in the day, so dont ask me anything and expect it to be answered before 8pm.


Last edited by Rolly on Tue Dec 21, 2010 6:33 am; edited 2 times in total
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andros
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 21, 2010 8:09 am    Post subject: Re: OMPL V-Discussion Reply with quote

Rolly wrote:
I cant respond in the day, so dont ask me anything and expect it to be answered before 8pm.


What!? You can't reply before 8pm? I DEMAND answers now Rolly! big grin

OMPL is tricky in that you need people committed to go out and play their matches every month.
These people also need to be motivated to play all or most their matches.
How do you motivate these people? We'll that up to you Rolly. smile
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Thumber
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 21, 2010 8:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think you should have to get every match in. I can live with a minimum of 4. I think there should be some penalty if you only play 4 or 5 matches....you shouldn't finish ahead of someone who worked hard to play all their matches.

I also think that if you don't play at least 4 matches you should not qualify in any way for the playoffs, nor hold a place in those rankings. You should simply get a DNF and ZERO points. Last year people who didn't even qualify for playoffs beat out deuce who, though perhaps poorly, did finish all his matches and was penalized by having to play top seeded players in the playoffs.

If we have an odd number coming into the playoffs, give byes.....I recommend the selection for the bye be random.

Can we discuss eligible courses? I thought Claus had a great suggestion in that CF, Kanata, the Shire and Ettyville are the recognized courses. If you are away team and asked to play at one of these courses you must accept. However, if both players are in agreement I think they should be able to play wherever they want....including using Ben-E Geoff contracting for Mooney's Bay. Without some tax. There....I said it
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lissyssil
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 21, 2010 9:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thumber wrote:
I think you should have to get every match in. I can live with a minimum of 4. I think there should be some penalty if you only play 4 or 5 matches....you shouldn't finish ahead of someone who worked hard to play all their matches.
The only problem I see with this is that one of your matches could be against someone who decides not to play any more. How does this get resolved?

Quote:
I also think that if you don't play at least 4 matches you should not qualify in any way for the playoffs, nor hold a place in those rankings. You should simply get a DNF and ZERO points. Last year people who didn't even qualify for playoffs beat out deuce who, though perhaps poorly, did finish all his matches and was penalized by having to play top seeded players in the playoffs.
I agree, provided the above issue is resolved somehow. In fact, I'd go even further, and suggest that if you don't play all of your matches (or are willing to play all your matches, but opponents forfeit), then you forfeit your League entry fees and prizes as well. Only those that complete the season (barring injury or extenuating circumstance) get prizes. Nothing for the quitters. NOTHING! smile

Quote:
If we have an odd number coming into the playoffs, give byes.....I recommend the selection for the bye be random.
Agreed.

Quote:
Can we discuss eligible courses? I thought Claus had a great suggestion in that CF, Kanata, the Shire and Ettyville are the recognized courses. If you are the away team and are asked to play at one of these courses you must accept. However, if both players are in agreement I think they should be able to play wherever they want....including using Ben-E Geoff contracting for Mooney's Bay. Without some tax. There....I said it
Added two words in the above quote for clarity, and I agree completely.

Why does my opinion count? Well, because a) I like to stir the pot, and b) because I plan to play the OMPL next season.

The only suggestion I'd make in addition to Shane's is that for the purposes of playoff seeding, this be done by win%, with tie breakers solved by holes_won%. This would give those that didn't play their full complement of matches because of opponent forfeit fair standing in the playoff seeding.
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Thumber
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 21, 2010 9:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

lissyssil wrote:
Thumber wrote:
I think you should have to get every match in. I can live with a minimum of 4. I think there should be some penalty if you only play 4 or 5 matches....you shouldn't finish ahead of someone who worked hard to play all their matches.
The only problem I see with this is that one of your matches could be against someone who decides not to play any more. How does this get resolved?



If someone does not finish the season, then any match they did play doesn't count and their opponent gets an automatic win. For example, If I played my first match against you and lost, but you failed to complete the requisite 4 matches, then my loss would be reversed to a win because you should not be able to affect standings if you don't qualify for the playoffs.

I don't think Rolly ever gives cash back unless you are hurt or have extenuating circumstances.
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John Pytel
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 21, 2010 10:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I know your question is 4/6. I’d say make it 6/6 and like most will share my opinion and suggestions as the rule isn’t going to solve the REAL issue in my mind.

Who ever thought it would be so hard to get 2 people to be able to schedule a match?
Given the number of events and persons non-DG commitments it’s a real challenge. History shows that simply one or 2 persons scheduling issues/ commitment can have a big impact on the series. A mostly negative impact and why Rolly is asking the question in the first place and created the rule.

One way I would suggest to raise the commitment level is “Bank of Rolly”. Up the registration fee to be its current fee PLUS $20 (or some other number) per match refundable either when all matches are in or per match completed. It’s “easy” to commit to and walk away from something that is $40. $160 dollars to me is a different thing. People may make further initial considerations before registering or make efforts to play remaining matches. No play and the prize pot just went up $20. I know everyone of you that is committed and currently making the matches is probably groaning right now. It’s the faint at heart that this is trying to keep in the series or prevent from registering. It’s by no means perfect. Chasing people for fines after is a headache Rolly doesn’t need either.

I realize that some people drop out for valid reasons. This is an official drop out and to me the schedule should adjust to reflect that as opposed to “automatic” wins granted. The commissioner can decide whether to refund or fine. I think this is somewhat in line with Shane’s automatic wins but I’d take it a step further as if 2 persons were to leave a division that would be a lot of wins given. No?

Great league and we all know how much I love match play. This league is great for the ODGC Pelican event. Big thanks to Rolly.
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Thumber
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 21, 2010 10:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

John Pytel wrote:


I realize that some people drop out for valid reasons. This is an official drop out and to me the schedule should adjust to reflect that as opposed to “automatic” wins granted. The commissioner can decide whether to refund or fine. I think this is somewhat in line with Shane’s automatic wins but I’d take it a step further as if 2 persons were to leave a division that would be a lot of wins given. No?


My issue is after the person drops put, all their subsequent matches are "won" by the players they didn't play. Seems to me it punishes the person who may have lost a match to the drop-out, but made the effort to actually schedule the time and play. There is only so much time to play in the summer and it bothers me that I scheduled time to play someone who later on renegs on their commitment to play their matches. So not only have I played a match against someone for nothing, I have also lost the opportunity to play against someone where it would have counted.

Thus, if you drop out, all your matches become default wins for those you were supposed to play, regardless of any matches you actually played. Its not perfect I know.

I kind of like the Bank of Rolly idea John, but not sure people will pony up that much to play, even knowing it is coming back. It would certainly solve alot of the drop out issue, knowing dropping out costs you an extra $60 to $120
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John Pytel
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 21, 2010 10:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thumber wrote:
John Pytel wrote:


I realize that some people drop out for valid reasons. This is an official drop out and to me the schedule should adjust to reflect that as opposed to “automatic” wins granted. The commissioner can decide whether to refund or fine. I think this is somewhat in line with Shane’s automatic wins but I’d take it a step further as if 2 persons were to leave a division that would be a lot of wins given. No?


My issue is after the person drops put, all their subsequent matches are "won" by the players they didn't play. Seems to me it punishes the person who may have lost a match to the drop-out, but made the effort to actually schedule the time and play. There is only so much time to play in the summer and it bothers me that I scheduled time to play someone who later on renegs on their commitment to play their matches. So not only have I played a match against someone for nothing, I have also lost the opportunity to play against someone where it would have counted.

Thus, if you drop out, all your matches become default wins for those you were supposed to play, regardless of any matches you actually played. Its not perfect I know.

I kind of like the Bank of Rolly idea John, but not sure people will pony up that much to play, even knowing it is coming back. It would certainly solve alot of the drop out issue, knowing dropping out costs you an extra $60 to $120


I agree 100% on the played matches for drop out. What I suggest is not automatic wins but change the schedule to reflect drop outs ie. They never existed. Would make more scheduling for Rolly when there is a drop out and prevent the nice "series long" schedule at the beginning. May prevent people from playing future matches as well.

There are play offs so nobody could win the thing based on automatic wins so maybe it's easiest.

Food for thought.

My crystal ball see's somebody in the future not happy that they had a lower ranking going into the playoffs because somebody had one or more automatic wins.
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John Pytel
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 21, 2010 10:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Maybe OMPL veteran's who have demonstrated their commitment level is beyond reproach do not have to use "Bank of Rolly"? New entrants would have to.
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Thumber
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 21, 2010 10:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

John Pytel wrote:


My crystal ball see's somebody in the future not happy that they had a lower ranking going into the playoffs because somebody had one or more automatic wins.


This is already what is happening
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disco rico
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 21, 2010 10:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thumber wrote:
John Pytel wrote:


My crystal ball see's somebody in the future not happy that they had a lower ranking going into the playoffs because somebody had one or more automatic wins.


This is already what is happening


Yup , happened to me this year ...

Not because someone got an automatic win , but because I didn't have the chance to pocket 2 extra wins
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disco rico
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 21, 2010 10:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Would have avoided Shane in the first round at the Shire... Shocked
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disco rico
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 21, 2010 10:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I still think the best way to get everybody to finish as as many matches as possible is to cram as much as possible early in the season , once summer rolls around ... it gets harder...

For May and June , you can tee off at 730 and get it done...
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disco rico
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 21, 2010 11:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

...We could also organise a " match play nite " once a month....
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clausr
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 21, 2010 11:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Guys, guys keep it simple.

Play 4 of 6 matches and your in the playoffs and could win prizes. Only playoff participants win prizes. Or at least all playoff participants are ranked higher than those that didn't complete their matches.

Players with the most points get the playoff buys if the numbers don't work out. That's incentive to 1st play all your matches and 2nd to do as well as possible in them. If you just scrap into the playoffs the odds are a little more stacked against you but you can still win. That's fair.

my 2c
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Thumber
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 21, 2010 11:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

clausr wrote:
Guys, guys keep it simple.

Play 4 of 6 matches and your in the playoffs and could win prizes. Only playoff participants win prizes. Or at least all playoff participants are ranked higher than those that didn't complete their matches.

Players with the most points get the playoff buys if the numbers don't work out. That's incentive to 1st play all your matches and 2nd to do as well as possible in them. If you just scrap into the playoffs the odds are a little more stacked against you but you can still win. That's fair.

my 2c


The issue is players who are still in get automatic wins for players who just drop out. This skews the rankings. Thus I proposed we use a random bye to counterbalance the fact that some people sign up but don't get all their matches in....
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John Pytel
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 21, 2010 12:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

clausr wrote:
Guys, guys keep it simple.

Play 4 of 6 matches and your in the playoffs and could win prizes. Only playoff participants win prizes. Or at least all playoff participants are ranked higher than those that didn't complete their matches.

Players with the most points get the playoff buys if the numbers don't work out. That's incentive to 1st play all your matches and 2nd to do as well as possible in them. If you just scrap into the playoffs the odds are a little more stacked against you but you can still win. That's fair.

my 2c


clausr wrote:
Guys, guys keep it simple.

Play 4 of 6 matches and your in the playoffs and could win prizes. Only playoff participants win prizes. Or at least all playoff participants are ranked higher than those that didn't complete their matches.

Players with the most points get the playoff buys if the numbers don't work out. That's incentive to 1st play all your matches and 2nd to do as well as possible in them. If you just scrap into the playoffs the odds are a little more stacked against you but you can still win. That's fair.

my 2c


Could a scenario like this happen?

Somebody wins 4 matches and is in the playoffs. Decides to forfeit the remaining 2 matches. These 2 forfeits give enough points to the winners to knock somebody out of the playoffs? Somebody who played all 6 matches.

The rules aren't clear to me on what happens with the unplayed matches. SHane proposes automatic wins for drop outs so somebody dropping out after 4 matches could factor in.

I don't know how it "could be simple" when trying to compare those who play all 6 matches to those that don't.

I do agree the playoffs settle it in the end BUT playoff rankings obviously matter and especially with home field selection.


Maybe drop the series down to 4 matches and make the playoffs deeper OR everybody gets into the playoffs? Just take the 4 matches to make some reasonable seedings to start the play offs.
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Thumber
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 21, 2010 12:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Everybody already makes the playoffs.

Even players who didn't get all the required matches in still had a playoff standing, though they couldn't play in the playoffs. Those people slated to play against them got automatic wins. I am saying this should not happen. If you don't get your 4 matches in, you don't hold any position in the playoffs.

I know Rolly did this for simplicity and to avoid midseason rules adjustments, but I don't think it should be this way next year.
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John Pytel
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 21, 2010 12:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thumber wrote:
Everybody already makes the playoffs.

Even players who didn't get all the required matches in still had a playoff standing, though they couldn't play in the playoffs. Those people slated to play against them got automatic wins. I am saying this should not happen. If you don't get your 4 matches in, you don't hold any position in the playoffs.

I know Rolly did this for simplicity and to avoid midseason rules adjustments, but I don't think it should be this way next year.


Ok.

Don't get your 4 in you're out of the playoffs.

How would you then deal with the disparity of 4 games in versus 6 games for the playoff seedings?
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clausr
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 21, 2010 12:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thumber wrote:

The issue is players who are still in get automatic wins for players who just drop out. This skews the rankings. Thus I proposed we use a random bye to counterbalance the fact that some people sign up but don't get all their matches in....


Players don't get automatic wins. You don't play, you get nothing. I didn't get any points for the 2 matches I didn't play.
You only get points if Rolly says you do and dropouts seem like a legitimate reason.

So all we have to worry about are dropouts, hopefully a very rare event. Maybe you draw someone that will drop out, maybe you won't. Its already random, why add extra randomness.
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