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Jefrey A. Brother
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 30, 2010 9:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote


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Thumber
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 30, 2010 9:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Are you kidding me?

You win Penton. The rules are perfect just the way they are.

LMAO
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Jefrey A. Brother
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 30, 2010 9:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote


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Roxie
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 30, 2010 10:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Did you just whip that up? Funny.
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C-Kyle
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 01, 2010 7:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thumber wrote:
Say its a Par 4, 650 feet. I drive it out 350 with a wraith, right in the center of the fairway. I've executed exactly what the designer of the hole intended. Next shot I have another 300 to go and need a full power shot to get to the basket. But where I am laying is a bit bumpy, and I'm going to miss my mark shooting there at full power. So, in essence, the course is not maintained to what the designer saw. I could go just back and hit 18-24 inches behind my disc and be fine, but I am forced to either go for it and try to get my bird, or stand and deliver, come up short and get an up and down 4.

The designer intended the risk to be that I could get there with 2 perfect full power throws but the fairway itself isn't sufficient. That's where I think there is a need for flexibility.


Thats like playing ball golf and you hit a perfect drive down the middle of the fairway and your ball lands in a divot left by somebody else prior to you arriving and then picking it up and moving it to a preferred spot on the fairway so you have a chance of making the next shot
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Thumber
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 01, 2010 8:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It ain't easy to argue something you don't believe in just to keep a conversation going
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Jefrey A. Brother
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 01, 2010 8:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Roxie wrote:
Did you just whip that up? Funny.


Yeeeehawww!
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clausr
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 01, 2010 9:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jefrey A. Brother wrote:

I started practicing before my first Worlds. I thought for sure they'd be paying attention to my feet during a run-up. Nope.


So no one cared about your runup is one datapoint.

Did you watch the pro/ams at worlds over the years. I'm wondering if the pros consistently hit their mark or do they taking liberties.
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Jefrey A. Brother
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 01, 2010 9:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

clausr wrote:
Jefrey A. Brother wrote:

I started practicing before my first Worlds. I thought for sure they'd be paying attention to my feet during a run-up. Nope.


So no one cared about your runup is one datapoint.


Sad isn't it.

Quote:

Did you watch the pro/ams at worlds over the years. I'm wondering if the pros consistently hit their mark or do they taking liberties.


They take liberities. They're daring you to call them. There have been a few that I've been mightly impressed with and always, always hit their field mark.

Most of the players trying to emulate Feldberg's step put are totally cheating. Worse than the jump putt.
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Thumber
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 01, 2010 10:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ok Geoff....I get your point that many people miss their mark and you don't want to have to a jerk pointing it out

So what do you propose to fix the issue? You are still going to have to call it, because the thrower isn't looking at the mark. Except now, instead of a warning you are doling out penalty strokes.

I have seen lots of criticism from you and encouragement for people to practice, but what is going to happen when people continue to miss the mark?
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Jefrey A. Brother
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 01, 2010 10:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thumber wrote:
Ok Geoff....I get your point that many people miss their mark and you don't want to have to a jerk pointing it out

So what do you propose to fix the issue? You are still going to have to call it, because the thrower isn't looking at the mark. Except now, instead of a warning you are doling out penalty strokes.


I'm good with the warnings.

Quote:

I have seen lots of criticism from you and encouragement for people to practice, but what is going to happen when people continue to miss the mark?


Open Forum mocking.
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Ken Darcovich
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 01, 2010 10:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Shane Sobchak wrote:


I have seen lots of criticism from you and encouragement for people to practice, but what is going to happen when people continue to miss the mark?



The whole subject is delicate. People aren't cheating per se, they're trying to heave a drive on rough ground, and periodically, they miss the mark. It's not pre-meditated wrongdoing, rather, taking risks and missing. I think most players understand the rule by now.

Being penalized for a mistake that makes little real difference to the outcome of the throw likely doesn't sit well with anyone. I got called for a foot foul (1st call, just a warning...) at the Plaid when I stepped onto my marker disc with my toes, thus missing by 2 or 3 cm. I was trying to observe the rule (and throw really, really hard at the same time) but still missed. If someone on my card felt that this "infraction" deserved to be penalized, that's their call, but in dealing with humans trying to do their best, I think this just ends up stoking the tit-for-tat mentality, where people could end up feeling pushed into being on the lookout for other players' foot fouls. I have no interest in this, unless it's flagrant and gains the other player a significant advantage. On the throw I described above, it was a decent throw but nothing really special, and the re-throw ended up being similar. The whole thing jut pissed me off, but I kept it to myself.

One approach could be like NHL refereeing, where really, they don't apply the rules, rather they interpret them.

The stroke penalty seems harsh, and at odds with hitting the mark as well as trying to throw really, really far. A proposed solution is a rule change where we would freely call foot fouls, but the consequence is that the throw does not count, and a re-throw is required, no penalty. This eliminates the nit-picky foot fouls where no real advantage is gained by missing the mark by a few cm, but at times when players feel an unfair advantage is being sought by a thrower, they can pull back on the reins and insist on the fairway drive being executed by the rules.

Even if this is not a PDGA rule, the ODGC could play this way.
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Jefrey A. Brother
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 01, 2010 10:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ken Darcovich wrote:
Shane Sobchak wrote:


I have seen lots of criticism from you and encouragement for people to practice, but what is going to happen when people continue to miss the mark?



The whole subject is delicate. People aren't cheating per se, they're trying to heave a drive on rough ground, and periodically, they miss the mark. It's not pre-meditated wrongdoing, rather, taking risks and missing. I think most players understand the rule by now.


If they've been reading this thread they certainly do. laughing

Quote:

Being penalized for a mistake that makes little real difference to the outcome of the throw likely doesn't sit well with anyone.


If it was a mistake, and the player has been practicing hitting their mark, and they really do care about hitting their mark (and their toes hit their disc), you are very right. It sucks and you'll probably feel you've been targetted inappropriately.

BUT, I have always had the feeling that players that don't care (and yes maybe this is just my interpretation of the player and action) are getting a "foot up" on me by not worrying about their feet, just the throw. And this is an unfair advantage.

Quote:

The stroke penalty seems harsh, and at odds with hitting the mark as well as trying to throw really, really far. A proposed solution is a rule change where we would freely call foot fouls, but the consequence is that the throw does not count, and a re-throw is required, no penalty. This eliminates the nit-picky foot fouls where no real advantage is gained by missing the mark by a few cm, but at times when players feel an unfair advantage is being sought by a thrower, they can pull back on the reins and insist on the fairway drive being executed by the rules.

Even if this is not a PDGA rule, the ODGC could play this way.


Interesting. I haven't called a foot fault in probably 3 years (maybe more I can't remember). But I have waited until the end of a round to mention some habits that they could work on eliminating.

I called a teebox foot fault once during a big Ottawa tournie and the first drive was thrown OB and would have left the player a stroke back and having to fight through trees to get back to the fairway. Definitely a 5 in the making. The FF was called. They re-threw. Landed on the fairway. Took a 3. I learned my lesson.
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Ken Darcovich
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 01, 2010 10:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Imagine this scenario:

Every missed mark gets called.

The whole damn tournament is played by everyone on "probation".

The whole day is sour.

Who needs this?
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Thumber
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 01, 2010 10:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

would it help if the line behind the disc was the width of the disc instead of the center line?
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surge
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 01, 2010 10:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

My 2 cents on the foot fault, if there really is no advantage to lateral FF who cares, but the FF that piss me off are the ones where a distinct advantage is had by the lateral miss. The ones I have witnessed are always to the more advantageous side...of course.
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Jefrey A. Brother
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 01, 2010 11:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ken Darcovich wrote:
Imagine this scenario:

Every missed mark gets called.

The whole damn tournament is played by everyone on "probation".

The whole day is sour.

Who needs this?


Imagine this scenario:

Every DGer practiced hitting their mark.

Every DGer is consciously thinking about hitting their mark.

No one needs to police the tournament because everyone has practiced playing within the rules.

The whole sport is so much happier.

I want this.
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Ken Darcovich
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 01, 2010 12:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jefrey A. Brother wrote:


Imagine this scenario:

Every DGer practiced hitting their mark.

Every DGer is consciously thinking about hitting their mark.

No one needs to police the tournament because everyone has practiced playing within the rules.

The whole sport is so much happier.

I want this.



Geoff has described what it would be like at the end of the rainbow. It sounds great, however we're not quite there.

Much of the discussion in this thread has for the constructive part of its aim, how we can all get to the end of the rainbow in a way that works well for everyone.

Currently, we're in an evolutionary phase where more and more full-power fairway driving is being demanded of players to be competitive. At the moment, our club has a mixed bag of players who are in the process of adapting to this change, and it has come to light that mark-hitting is proving to be an issue. As much as it is an advantage to only worry about the throw and not the footing, the rules require that we all respect the mark for fairway drives.

I hope we can all be constructive and helpful with each other along the way. Players normally can accept foot faults being pointed out. I've rarely witness anyone being called arguing the point. But then being on probation in a tournament adds an extra level of stress that no one needs when they're trying hard to compete.

This boils down to a judgment call on whether you think someone is gaining an unfair advantage by not bothering to put any effort into hitting their mark. If they are, and still miss, and get called, it's an awkward sore point.
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Jefrey A. Brother
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 01, 2010 12:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ken Darcovich wrote:
Jefrey A. Brother wrote:


Imagine this scenario:

Every DGer practiced hitting their mark.

Every DGer is consciously thinking about hitting their mark.

No one needs to police the tournament because everyone has practiced playing within the rules.

The whole sport is so much happier.

I want this.



Geoff has described what it would be like at the end of the rainbow. It sounds great, however we're not quite there.

Much of the discussion in this thread has for the constructive part of its aim, how we can all get to the end of the rainbow in a way that works well for everyone.

Currently, we're in an evolutionary phase where more and more full-power fairway driving is being demanded of players to be competitive. At the moment, our club has a mixed bag of players who are in the process of adapting to this change, and it has come to light that mark-hitting is proving to be an issue. As much as it is an advantage to only worry about the throw and not the footing, the rules require that we all respect the mark for fairway drives.

I hope we can all be constructive and helpful with each other along the way. Players normally can accept foot faults being pointed out. I've rarely witness anyone being called arguing the point. But then being on probation in a tournament adds an extra level of stress that no one needs when they're trying hard to compete.

This boils down to a judgment call on whether you think someone is gaining an unfair advantage by not bothering to put any effort into hitting their mark. If they are, and still miss, and get called, it's an awkward sore point.


I would agree with you Ken. If ODGC players developing their game were to incorporate the run-up-hit-your-mark in their training we'd be ahead of the game. Get into good habits before you develop bad habits and therefore have to reconstruct your game.

If the PDGA changes the rule and allows more of a leeway, then great, nothing to worry about. If it remains the same rule, then great, nothing to worry about.

If someone would actually like to read/hear my training methods for this skill I'd be happy to share. Though, it's nothing out of the ordinary and definitly not mind blowing.
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Thumber
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 01, 2010 12:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I would like it if you posted something mind blowing
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