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Jefrey A. Brother
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 22, 2010 2:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

After re-reading the rules a bit for this discussion, flipping your disc, instead of marking it, is a two stroke penalty. Funny.
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Holly D
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 22, 2010 2:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

lissyssil wrote:
Jefrey A. Brother wrote:
I would agree with your assumtions. If you're cheating (hit a disc down in flight, move your bag in the way of rolling disc) you get stroked. If you aren't, then continue on your merry way (bruises and all).

You said the magic word... cheating.

3.3 Professional Misconduct, which stipulates grounds for a DQ, includes:
Quote:
Cheating or willful attempt to circumvent the rules of play

So, is it two strokes, or a DQ?


I think you are focusing entirely too closely on the exact phrases used (in a paraphrased "takeaway" no less) and should instead give more weight to the intention of the rules.

ib4: notice I do not say that exact phrasing of rules is not important, because we can all agree that it is. What I'm saying is that you are getting too caught up in small details, such as "the course of a disc" (instead of the actions of the away player near that disc) and the exact words that Geoff uses (instead of what he was getting at).
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Jefrey A. Brother
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 22, 2010 2:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jefrey A. Brother wrote:
After re-reading the rules a bit for this discussion, flipping your disc, instead of marking it, is a two stroke penalty. Funny.


Nope. Re-read it again and you'd have to flip some one else's disc.
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Thumber
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 22, 2010 2:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jefrey A. Brother wrote:
After re-reading the rules a bit for this discussion, flipping your disc, instead of marking it, is a two stroke penalty. Funny.


without warning.....this is coming out the next time I am in a tight money round
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Jefrey A. Brother
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 22, 2010 2:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jefrey A. Brother wrote:
Jefrey A. Brother wrote:
After re-reading the rules a bit for this discussion, flipping your disc, instead of marking it, is a two stroke penalty. Funny.


Nope. Re-read it again and you'd have to flip some one else's disc.


Here's the ruling:

Quote:
803.03 Marking the Lie

A. After each throw, the thrown disc must be left where it came to rest until the lie is established by the placing of a marker. This can be done by placing a mini marker disc on the playing surface between the hole and the disc, directly in line with the hole, on the line of play, touching the thrown disc. A player may instead choose, without touching or repositioning the thrown disc, to use the thrown disc as the marker. The marker may not be moved until the throw is released. A marker inadvertently moved prior to the throw shall be returned to its correct location.

....

G. A player shall receive a warning for the first violation of a marking rule if observed by two or more players of the group or an official. One penalty throw shall be assessed for each subsequent violation of any marking rule during the round if observed by two or more players of the group or an official.

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lissyssil
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 22, 2010 2:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jefrey A. Brother wrote:
Here you've jumped into the Competition Manual. These are the rules for a PDGA event.


True. Statement rescinded. Unless it's at a PDGA event.
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Jefrey A. Brother
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 22, 2010 2:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thumber wrote:
Jefrey A. Brother wrote:
After re-reading the rules a bit for this discussion, flipping your disc, instead of marking it, is a two stroke penalty. Funny.


without warning.....this is coming out the next time I am in a tight money round


Tight money round of doubles. If you catch a person's doubles partner flipping their partners disc, then you could call it.
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lissyssil
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 22, 2010 2:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Holly D wrote:
I think you are focusing entirely too closely on the exact phrases used (in a paraphrased "takeaway" no less) and should instead give more weight to the intention of the rules.


In most cases, you're right, and it's primarily because arguing is fun.

But, slapping a disc down in flight is considered cheating, yes? And should result in a DQ at a PDGA event, yes?
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Jefrey A. Brother
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 22, 2010 3:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

lissyssil wrote:
Jefrey A. Brother wrote:
Here you've jumped into the Competition Manual. These are the rules for a PDGA event.


True. Statement rescinded. Unless it's at a PDGA event.


We, as a group, tend to ignore some of the rules in the Competition Manual in most of the event in Ottawa (please refer to CM 3.4 Dress Code and several of the rules found in CM 3.3).

Quote:
3.3 Professional Misconduct
A. The PDGA adopts a strict policy of appropriate behavior and comments to the media. Any conduct deemed to be unprofessional is subject to disqualification by the Tournament Director, and may also be subject to suspension from PDGA events.

B. Players are expected to behave in a professional and sportsmanlike manner while participating in a PDGA sanctioned event. Actions that are in violation of this conduct include but are not limited to:

• Loud cursing
• Throwing items in anger (other than discs in play)
• Overt rudeness
• Destruction, abuse or vandalism of property, including animals, and plant life
• Cheating or willful attempt to circumvent the rules of play
• Physical attacks or threatening behavior.
• Any activities which are in violation of Federal, State, local laws or ordinances and park regulations.
• Excessive use of alcohol or the use of illegal substances at the tournament site.
• Underage drinking

C. The use of illegal substances is forbidden from the two minute warning until the player’s scorecard is submitted. Such use shall result in immediate disqualification.

D. Consumption of alcohol is expressly forbidden from the two minute warning until the player’s scorecard is submitted. Such use shall result in immediate disqualification at a B Tier or higher event. (This rule is still in effect at “C Tier” events. However, the Tournament Director may elect to issue a warning to the offending player instead of immediately disqualifying them. If a player has been issued a warning, all subsequent violations shall result in immediate disqualification.)

E. Tournament Directors are required to report any disqualifications to the PDGA as quickly as possible.

F. Disqualified players shall forfeit any prize money or merchandise and shall not receive a refund of entry fees.

G. Players who commit Professional Misconduct may also be subject to disciplinary actions. To find out more information about the Disciplinary Process please visit www.pdga.com/discipline.


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lissyssil
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 22, 2010 3:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jefrey A. Brother wrote:
Thumber wrote:
without warning.....this is coming out the next time I am in a tight money round


Tight money round of doubles. If you catch a person's doubles partner flipping their partners disc, then you could call it.


But, you either play by the PDGA rules, or you don't. If you're playing by them, then flipping the disc is illegal. If you're not, then there is no written rule stating that flipping a disc to mark your lie is illegal. And, I'm going to argue that by flipping your partner's disc, you ARE marking your own lie, as you share the lie with your partner...

Another useless 2 cents from me. And now, a meeting!
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Jefrey A. Brother
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 22, 2010 3:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

lissyssil wrote:
Holly D wrote:
I think you are focusing entirely too closely on the exact phrases used (in a paraphrased "takeaway" no less) and should instead give more weight to the intention of the rules.


In most cases, you're right, and it's primarily because arguing is fun.

But, slapping a disc down in flight is considered cheating, yes? And should result in a DQ at a PDGA event, yes?


Quote:
Likewise, a player should not be penalized for reflexively interfering with the flight of an errant shot to prevent it from striking someone including himself. The group should consider this “unconscious interference” and not penalize the player deflecting the disc.


For cheating, I would hope so. For something stupid, maybe not. I ran one PDGA event, and I'll never do it again.

This "takeaway" kinda goes against what the RC stated at the beginning of this thread. Serge could have argued he was good.
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Jefrey A. Brother
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 22, 2010 3:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

lissyssil wrote:
Jefrey A. Brother wrote:
Thumber wrote:
without warning.....this is coming out the next time I am in a tight money round


Tight money round of doubles. If you catch a person's doubles partner flipping their partners disc, then you could call it.


But, you either play by the PDGA rules, or you don't. If you're playing by them, then flipping the disc is illegal.


Yeah, but you'd get warned first.

Quote:

If you're not, then there is no written rule stating that flipping a disc to mark your lie is illegal.


Whose rules would you be following? As far as I know, there are only the PDGA rules with regards to DG, though I'll admit I've never gone looking.

Regardless, if you are following what most of us follow with regard to DG rules, then you are following the PDGA Official Rules of Disc Golf. And yes, it is illegal to flip your disc. You'd just get a warning first, not the initial 2 strokes I reported earlier.
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lissyssil
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 22, 2010 4:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jefrey A. Brother wrote:
Regardless, if you are following what most of us follow with regard to DG rules, then you are following the PDGA Official Rules of Disc Golf. And yes, it is illegal to flip your disc. You'd just get a warning first, not the initial 2 strokes I reported earlier.

I agree that we generally follow the PDGA rules. But, disc flipping is a common event, and commonly agreed to during "casual" rounds, or even money rounds at the shire.

The point I was trying to make there was that during a round where disc flipping has been accepted as a legal form of marking the lie, flipping your partner's disc to mark the lie shouldn't be called interference, as your partner's lie is also your lie.
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Thumber
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 22, 2010 4:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

lissyssil wrote:
Jefrey A. Brother wrote:
Regardless, if you are following what most of us follow with regard to DG rules, then you are following the PDGA Official Rules of Disc Golf. And yes, it is illegal to flip your disc. You'd just get a warning first, not the initial 2 strokes I reported earlier.

I agree that we generally follow the PDGA rules. But, disc flipping is a common event, and commonly agreed to during "casual" rounds, or even money rounds at the shire.

The point I was trying to make there was that during a round where disc flipping has been accepted as a legal form of marking the lie, flipping your partner's disc to mark the lie shouldn't be called interference, as your partner's lie is also your lie.


All this being said, i have seen quite a few liberties being taken in the money rounds at the shire....me no like to see that

Every time I flip a disc my mind says "you just cheated". It didn't use to be that way, but now that i know the rule I just play it as it lies, or use a mini
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Chuck Shick
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 22, 2010 4:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

One might suggest that if you are playing a round that involves disc flipping (whether it's casual or for money), most rule discussions involving the lie are moot.
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lissyssil
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 22, 2010 4:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

So maybe we need to start being hard-asses about the rules. I like the idea of playing by the rules, and I try to do it as often as I can. I don't flip discs, either, but mostly because if I do it now, I'll probably forget and do it at a tournament.

...and maybe we should be more stringent with the competition manual at the CC as well, as regards illicit substances and alcohol after the horn...
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Thumber
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 22, 2010 4:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

lissyssil wrote:


...and maybe we should be more stringent with the competition manual at the CC as well, as regards illicit substances and alcohol after the horn...


Maybe you should find other people to play with and stop trying to be the new Rules Stalin big grin
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lissyssil
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 22, 2010 4:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thumber wrote:
Maybe you should find other people to play with and stop trying to be the new Rules Stalin big grin



...methinks I just poked the tiger.
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Jefrey A. Brother
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 22, 2010 5:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

lissyssil wrote:
Jefrey A. Brother wrote:
Regardless, if you are following what most of us follow with regard to DG rules, then you are following the PDGA Official Rules of Disc Golf. And yes, it is illegal to flip your disc. You'd just get a warning first, not the initial 2 strokes I reported earlier.

I agree that we generally follow the PDGA rules. But, disc flipping is a common event, and commonly agreed to during "casual" rounds, or even money rounds at the shire.

The point I was trying to make there was that during a round where disc flipping has been accepted as a legal form of marking the lie, flipping your partner's disc to mark the lie shouldn't be called interference, as your partner's lie is also your lie.


Ah, yes. Agreed.
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Jefrey A. Brother
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 22, 2010 5:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

lissyssil wrote:

...and maybe we should be more stringent with the competition manual at the CC as well, as regards illicit substances and alcohol after the horn...


Quote:
C. The use of illegal substances is forbidden from the two minute warning until the player’s scorecard is submitted. Such use shall result in immediate disqualification.

D. Consumption of alcohol is expressly forbidden from the two minute warning until the player’s scorecard is submitted. Such use shall result in immediate disqualification at a B Tier or higher event. (This rule is still in effect at “C Tier” events. However, the Tournament Director may elect to issue a warning to the offending player instead of immediately disqualifying them. If a player has been issued a warning, all subsequent violations shall result in immediate disqualification.)


The ODGC has always encouraged players to follow the CM at the CC and I would bet that to the TDs knowledge, these rules have been followed. Most of us are well aware of the predicament we can put the TD in if we don't.

With regards to the dress code, though... Wink
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Last edited by Jefrey A. Brother on Mon Nov 22, 2010 5:22 pm; edited 1 time in total
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