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lissyssil
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 22, 2010 11:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
C. Any player who consciously alters the course of a thrown disc, ... shall receive two penalty throws, without a warning, if observed by any two players or an official.


<rant>

What a dumb, useless, pointless, unenforceable, pathetic rule. Take for example Andros' drive hitting Carl's stool on Saturday. Essentially, I could make a case for the assignation of two penalty strokes no matter what Carl does.

Case 1: Carl doesn't move his stool, and Andros' disc hits the stool. The course of the thrown disc moved through the space occupied by Carl's stool, and Carl chose to not move the stool. This consciously alters the course of the thrown disc, two strokes penalty.

Case 2: Carl moves his stool, and Andros' disc does not hit it. By choosing to move the stool, the flight path of Andros' disc is modified, in that the disc will not follow the path it would have if the entire environment was static from the moment the disc left Andros' hand. Therefore, the course of the thrown disc is consciously altered, two strokes penalty.

</rant>

And now, I decide that I shall no longer drop my bag at the side of the tee box. Because, the way the rule is written, you could throw your drive at my bag, assign me a two stroke penalty, and then retee. Of course, I'll call you on a courtesy for it, but hey, it's only a courtesy...

My personal opinion is that the interference rule should be written so interference can be assigned if you hit your own equipment, causing you to incur a two stroke penalty, no warnings. Also, another player who through conscious action (not conscious inaction) strikes another disc should be assigned an interference penalty, two strokes, no warning.

This means that if you throw, and my bag is on the ground, I can either leave it there, or pick it up without threat of penalty. But, if, in the process of picking it up, I strike your disc, whoops, two strokes. Of course, this opens the door to hanging my bag on the basket, but I'm sure that could be covered by courtesy, or something.

I dunno, hard one to write a rule for.
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Thumber
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 22, 2010 11:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

If you are on another tee box and a shot hits your gear it is fine. You are not obligated to move the bag. In effect, the bag becomes an obstacle. `No penalty.

What you describe above would only apply if you are all on the same hole
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lissyssil
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 22, 2010 11:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thumber wrote:
What you describe above would only apply if you are all on the same hole


That was my intention. Great for use in playoff situations, perhaps.
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Jefrey A. Brother
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 22, 2010 11:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

lissyssil wrote:
Quote:
C. Any player who consciously alters the course of a thrown disc, ... shall receive two penalty throws, without a warning, if observed by any two players or an official.


<rant>

What a dumb, useless, pointless, unenforceable, pathetic rule. Take for example Andros' drive hitting Carl's stool on Saturday. Essentially, I could make a case for the assignation of two penalty strokes no matter what Carl does.

Case 1: Carl doesn't move his stool, and Andros' disc hits the stool. The course of the thrown disc moved through the space occupied by Carl's stool, and Carl chose to not move the stool. This consciously alters the course of the thrown disc, two strokes penalty.

Case 2: Carl moves his stool, and Andros' disc does not hit it. By choosing to move the stool, the flight path of Andros' disc is modified, in that the disc will not follow the path it would have if the entire environment was static from the moment the disc left Andros' hand. Therefore, the course of the thrown disc is consciously altered, two strokes penalty.

</rant>

And now, I decide that I shall no longer drop my bag at the side of the tee box. Because, the way the rule is written, you could throw your drive at my bag, assign me a two stroke penalty, and then retee. Of course, I'll call you on a courtesy for it, but hey, it's only a courtesy...

My personal opinion is that the interference rule should be written so interference can be assigned if you hit your own equipment, causing you to incur a two stroke penalty, no warnings. Also, another player who through conscious action (not conscious inaction) strikes another disc should be assigned an interference penalty, two strokes, no warning.

This means that if you throw, and my bag is on the ground, I can either leave it there, or pick it up without threat of penalty. But, if, in the process of picking it up, I strike your disc, whoops, two strokes. Of course, this opens the door to hanging my bag on the basket, but I'm sure that could be covered by courtesy, or something.

I dunno, hard one to write a rule for.


Carl did not consciously altertthe course of the disc. It hit his bag/stool. Carl didn't put the bag in the way and "The away player" didn't ask "other players to mark their lies or move their equipment before making a throw if the player believes that either could interfere with his or her throw". This is not the fault of Carl. You would have a hard time giving him a two stroke penalty.
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C-Kyle
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 22, 2010 12:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

How does the person with the obstacle(carl's stool) know what the path the the thrower is choosing. For most shots it is obvious but in some cases it is not so unless the thrower specifically instructs the obstacle owner to move the obstacle then there should never be a penalty. In ball golf if at any point your ball comes in contact with your bag it is a penalty no matter if the ball bounces off a tree and goes over to where u assumed your bag was safe it is still a penalty.
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Roxie
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 22, 2010 12:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Funny thing is I had time to move it. I wanted to see what happend being evil
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 22, 2010 12:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

C-Kyle wrote:
In ball golf if at any point your ball comes in contact with your bag it is a penalty no matter if the ball bounces off a tree and goes over to where u assumed your bag was safe it is still a penalty.


But that's your own bag right? It makes sense then as it's your own bag. You put it there and then hit it. If it's someone else's bag...
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lissyssil
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 22, 2010 1:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If it's someone else's bag, the way I read the rules, truly (not when playing devil's advocate), the only time they should be penalized is if the disc is struck while that person is in the process of moving the bag.

Am I right?
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Thumber
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 22, 2010 1:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

lissyssil wrote:
If it's someone else's bag, the way I read the rules, truly (not when playing devil's advocate), the only time they should be penalized is if the disc is struck while that person is in the process of moving the bag.

Am I right?


No, the person is trying to get the bag out of the way. This is not purposeful interference....just slow reflexes

If you threw a roller and Carl walked over and dropped his bag in front of the disc, and he was on the same hole, and he knew you had thrown, then it would be interference

Bad Carl!!! angry
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Jefrey A. Brother
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 22, 2010 1:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

BigBrotherPenton wrote:
This was sent from John Chapman.

-------------------------------------------------------
Sent: Tuesday, May 5, 2009 12:27:21 PM
Subject: Re: Rules Commitee: Interference

Geoff,

To me, this is a violation of 803.07C, and the player would receive a 2-throw penalty, and I would make this ruling on the basis that the player caught the disc. Whether instinctively or not, he made an active attempt to interfere with the flight of the disc, even if this really wasn't his intent. If the disc simply hit the player because it was moving too fast for him to get out of the way, I would rule that there is no penalty.

However, all that being said, I could see how an official or TD might rule that the player did not "consciously" alter the flight of the disc, as it was probably more of a defense mechanism than anything. While I wouldn't rule that way, I could see a TD or official interpreting the rule that way.

Cheers,

John Chapman


This was from an email conversation about this topic (which is talked about at the beginning of this thread). John states, "made an active attempt to interfere with the flight of the disc". This is key.
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lissyssil
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 22, 2010 1:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

But... He has now consciously altered the course of the disc... Intentional or not, 803.07C now applies.
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Jefrey A. Brother
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 22, 2010 1:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

lissyssil wrote:
But... He has now consciously altered the course of the disc... Intentional or not, 803.07C now applies.


If the disc was thrown at the bag/stool, it could be argued that was the "course" of the disc. It was on a course to the bag/stool.

The definitions that I keep finding for consciouly keep stating: with awareness. Were they aware they were altering the course of the disc? Lifting a bag to get it out of the way is consciously trying to avoid the course of the disc.
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lissyssil
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 22, 2010 1:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
If the disc was thrown at the bag/stool, it could be argued that was the "course" of the disc. It was on a course to the bag/stool.

Agreed. Though, my devil's advocate voice says that if the bag was there at the start of the throw, it cannot be moved, by the bag owner, as it is unknown whether or not striking the object was intended by the thrower.

Quote:
Lifting a bag to get it out of the way is consciously trying to avoid the course of the disc.

Or, it could be consciously altering the course of the disc, as the course includes striking the bag/stool.

It kind of boils down to whether or not a placed bag/stool/player owned object becomes an environmental hazard on the course or not. I don't see that defined anywhere in the rulebook. We should also have the "course of the disc" properly defined by the RC.

The assumption can be that it does not become a hazard, but it's only an assumption until the rules committee passes judgment.

We should also have the "course of the disc" properly defined by the RC. Then, we'll be better able to define a rule such that if a disc is struck by an opposing player or equipment carried by the opposing player, where that player is intentionally (and actively) attempting to alter the course of said disc, that player shall be assigned two penalty strokes. Everything else can be ruled incidental non-intentional contact, with no penalty, and play-it-where-it-lies.

...and we'll keep running in circles here until the rule is clarified.


...and even penalized, we wouldn't have beaten the unsurmountable foe of Carl and Serge... big grin big grin
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Jefrey A. Brother
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 22, 2010 1:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

No, we needed more than 2 strokes.
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Thumber
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 22, 2010 1:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

here is the PDGA discussion on interference

http://www.pdga.com/interference-rule
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 22, 2010 1:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thumber wrote:
here is the PDGA discussion on interference

http://www.pdga.com/interference-rule


Take aways from the article:

Quote:
A moving disc contacts a living object that is unaware the disc is coming toward it or is unable to get out of the way fast enough. The disc is marked and played from where it lands after the deflection. The thrower does get an OB penalty if the deflection is unlucky and the disc ends up OB. This is no different from the randomness of a disc deflecting OB off a tree branch waving in the wind – 300 milliseconds later the disc might have missed the waving branch completely.


Quote:
Although this rule segment only lists living beings, its meaning can be extended to cover such things as a disc striking another player’s disc that’s moving or stationary, a golf bag, a golf cart, bicycle or other vehicle, and essentially any other inanimate object that normally wouldn’t be in a flight path on the course.


Quote:
This is a cautionary note reminding players to try and keep items like their discs, bags, carts, umbrellas and themselves out of the way from potentially being struck by another player’s throw. A player may request that other players move their equipment. If a player does not move the equipment as requested, that player can be subject to the penalty in 803.07C discussed below if their equipment does get contacted by the requester’s thrown disc.


Quote:
If a player or equipment is struck by a moving disc and no request was made to move them, the disc would be played where it lands per the accidental interference in the first sentence of 803.07A.


Quote:
Likewise, a player should not be penalized for reflexively interfering with the flight of an errant shot to prevent it from striking someone including himself. The group should consider this “unconscious interference” and not penalize the player deflecting the disc.

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lissyssil
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 22, 2010 2:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

...and, if I'm correct, the takeaway from that takeaway is that if your bag/stool/etc. is on the ground, it doesn't matter what you do (unless you've been asked to move the bag).

So... Bag on the ground, no penalty (unintentional interference). Bag moved out of the way, no penalty (no interference at all). Disc striking bag as you pick it up to move it out of the way, no penalty (unintentional interference).

...and, the only way you get the two strokes is if you yourself physically and intentionally alter the course of the disc.


...I think. Right?
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Jefrey A. Brother
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 22, 2010 2:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

lissyssil wrote:
...and, if I'm correct, the takeaway from that takeaway is that if your bag/stool/etc. is on the ground, it doesn't matter what you do (unless you've been asked to move the bag).

So... Bag on the ground, no penalty (unintentional interference). Bag moved out of the way, no penalty (no interference at all). Disc striking bag as you pick it up to move it out of the way, no penalty (unintentional interference).

...and, the only way you get the two strokes is if you yourself physically and intentionally alter the course of the disc.


...I think. Right?


I would agree with your assumtions. If you're cheating (hit a disc down in flight, move your bag in the way of rolling disc) you get stroked. If you aren't, then continue on your merry way (bruises and all).
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lissyssil
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 22, 2010 2:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jefrey A. Brother wrote:
I would agree with your assumtions. If you're cheating (hit a disc down in flight, move your bag in the way of rolling disc) you get stroked. If you aren't, then continue on your merry way (bruises and all).

You said the magic word... cheating.

3.3 Professional Misconduct, which stipulates grounds for a DQ, includes:
Quote:
Cheating or willful attempt to circumvent the rules of play

So, is it two strokes, or a DQ?
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Jefrey A. Brother
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 22, 2010 2:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

lissyssil wrote:
Jefrey A. Brother wrote:
I would agree with your assumtions. If you're cheating (hit a disc down in flight, move your bag in the way of rolling disc) you get stroked. If you aren't, then continue on your merry way (bruises and all).

You said the magic word... cheating.

3.3 Professional Misconduct, which stipulates grounds for a DQ, includes:
Quote:
Cheating or willful attempt to circumvent the rules of play

So, is it two strokes, or a DQ?


Here you've jumped into the Competition Manual. These are the rules for a PDGA event.
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