Ottawa Disc Golf Club

This topic is locked: you cannot edit posts or make replies. ODGC Forums Forum Index -> Presidents Cup -> 2011 Presidents Cup Rule Changes - An Open Discussion Goto page 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7  Next
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
Jefrey A. Brother
King Jefrey


Joined: 05 Feb 2010
Posts: 10042
Location: First tee

PostPosted: Sun Sep 19, 2010 10:14 am    Post subject: 2011 Presidents Cup Rule Changes - An Open Discussion Reply with quote

During the second season of the Presidents Cup it has become apparent that the President Cup Points need to be more inclusive.

This will be a thread that will outline changes that might be taking place for the 2011 season to address the needs and wants of the ODGC member.

Discussion is encouraged, but keep the discussions to point and non-personal. All comments that are deemed inappropriate by the Tour Managers will be removed. Any other threads started (not done by the Tour Managers) in the Presidents Cup Forum will be removed.

Please us the QUOTE feature of the Forum to help with discussions.


Last edited by Jefrey A. Brother on Sun Sep 19, 2010 10:28 am; edited 1 time in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Jefrey A. Brother
King Jefrey


Joined: 05 Feb 2010
Posts: 10042
Location: First tee

PostPosted: Sun Sep 19, 2010 10:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

RULE CHANGE - TOSS QB Challenge

2 points added to the QB total for winning their Pool; 1 point for second in the pool.


Rationale: Give more reason to fight for a second place finish, and reward those who win a C Pool with more than the min. 4 points.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Jefrey A. Brother
King Jefrey


Joined: 05 Feb 2010
Posts: 10042
Location: First tee

PostPosted: Sun Sep 19, 2010 10:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

NOT TO BE INCLUDED IN THE 2011 PC SERIES

RULE CHANGE - PC Points given to AM 2 and AM 3 division players as well.

Players playing in AM 2 and AM 3 divisions will earn the lowest points available to a player depending on the Tier and the amount of players playing.

Rationale: The PC Series is supposed to be inclusive and with the growing amount of recreation golfers joining the competitive realm it's important to acknowledge their participation and dedication to the sport.


Last edited by Jefrey A. Brother on Mon Oct 25, 2010 12:53 pm; edited 2 times in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Jefrey A. Brother
King Jefrey


Joined: 05 Feb 2010
Posts: 10042
Location: First tee

PostPosted: Mon Oct 25, 2010 8:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

RULE CHANGE - Take top 3, 4 or 5 BS Points to be used for BS Totals.

Rationale: To make the BS side of the competition more competitive.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
lissyssil
Champion of Chains


Joined: 28 May 2010
Posts: 2558
Location: Aylmer, QC

PostPosted: Mon Oct 25, 2010 8:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jefrey A. Brother wrote:
RULE CHANGE - PC Points given to AM 2 and AM 3 division players as well.

Players playing in AM 2 and AM 3 divisions will earn the lowest points available to a player depending on the Tier and the amount of players playing.


Suggestion:

A situation, to describe the suggestion:

3 open players, 3 AM1 players, and 2 AM2 players at an ODGC Tourney. Open and AM1 play long/long tees, AM2 plays short/short.

Scores were as follows:

OpenPlayer1: 102
OpenPlayer2: 106
OpenPlayer3: 114
AM1Player1: 105
AM1Player2: 115
AM1Player3: 116
AM2Player1: 108
AM2Player2: 120

PC Results:
1 OpenPlayer1
2 AM1Player1
3 OpenPlayer2
4 OpenPlayer3
5 AM1Player2
6 AM1Player3
7 AM2 Player1
8 AM2 Player2

Rather than give AM2/AM3 the minimum number of points, give them points based on position where players teeing off of easier tees cannot beat players teeing off of more difficult tees.

So, for a two round, two tees tourney, the first set of PC Points spots would be reserved for players playing long/long, the second set reserved for long/short and short/long, and the third for short/short.

This encourages competition even in the lower divisions for PC Points.

Does that make sense?
_________________
Go Sens!


Last edited by lissyssil on Mon Oct 25, 2010 8:37 am; edited 2 times in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website MSN Messenger
lissyssil
Champion of Chains


Joined: 28 May 2010
Posts: 2558
Location: Aylmer, QC

PostPosted: Mon Oct 25, 2010 8:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Alternately, PC Points could be grouped into divisions as well, with AM1/Open sharing a division, and being the "Elite PC Division", while AM2/AM3 share a division that serves as the "Entry PC Division"...

Because really, the likelihood, in any event, of an AM2/AM3 player winning the overall PC Points title is zero.

Give the Rec and AM2 players something genuine to fight for. smile
_________________
Go Sens!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website MSN Messenger
Jefrey A. Brother
King Jefrey


Joined: 05 Feb 2010
Posts: 10042
Location: First tee

PostPosted: Mon Oct 25, 2010 10:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

lissyssil wrote:
Jefrey A. Brother wrote:
RULE CHANGE - PC Points given to AM 2 and AM 3 division players as well.

Players playing in AM 2 and AM 3 divisions will earn the lowest points available to a player depending on the Tier and the amount of players playing.


Suggestion:

Rather than give AM2/AM3 the minimum number of points, give them points based on position where players teeing off of easier tees cannot beat players teeing off of more difficult tees.

So, for a two round, two tees tourney, the first set of PC Points spots would be reserved for players playing long/long, the second set reserved for long/short and short/long, and the third for short/short.

This encourages competition even in the lower divisions for PC Points.

Does that make sense?


It does make sense, and it's a great idea.

You'll see, though, they'll end up recieving the lowest points available anyways as the lowest points are given out at around the 15th spot. The events that have different tees (CC and The Plaid) will usually have the numbers to do this. The GOAT, Falling Colours, MOD, LNF, King of the Oonie, Tree-Oh, TOSS, Ice Bowl all play from one tee.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
John Pytel
Sultan of Swill


Joined: 17 Aug 2005
Posts: 3697
Location: Ottawa, Ontario, Canada

PostPosted: Mon Oct 25, 2010 10:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jefrey A. Brother wrote:
RULE CHANGE - PC Points given to AM 2 and AM 3 division players as well.

Players playing in AM 2 and AM 3 divisions will earn the lowest points available to a player depending on the Tier and the amount of players playing.

Rationale: The PC Series is supposed to be inclusive and with the growing amount of recreation golfers joining the competitive realm it's important to acknowledge their participation and dedication to the sport.


I pose a question. Would people support an AM2 winning the President Cup?

Depending on what more inclusivity is to achieve I see 2 options.

1) The PC being broken down into divisions. PC Pro winner, PC AM1 winner, and PC AM2 winner.

OR

2) Don't give the AM2's the lowest of anything. Give them appropriate points for how they finished in their respective class.

Either way appears to require players to be in a class. Declared or determined. Highest level you competed at that season or something.

Have the same point system but award the points based on how you finished in your class. Ties in finishing place go to the tougher class awarded first.

So something like.

1st in pro gets first in PC points.
1st in AM1 gets 2nd PC points.
1st in AM2 gets 3rd PC points.
2nd in pro gets 4th PC points.
2nd in AM1 gets 5th PC points.
2nd in AM2 gets 6th PC points.


Or I suppose one last thought would be to award PC points based on participation number in that class. A lower class that has more participants could recieve more points.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Jefrey A. Brother
King Jefrey


Joined: 05 Feb 2010
Posts: 10042
Location: First tee

PostPosted: Mon Oct 25, 2010 10:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

lissyssil wrote:
Alternately, PC Points could be grouped into divisions as well, with AM1/Open sharing a division, and being the "Elite PC Division", while AM2/AM3 share a division that serves as the "Entry PC Division"...

Because really, the likelihood, in any event, of an AM2/AM3 player winning the overall PC Points title is zero.

Give the Rec and AM2 players something genuine to fight for. smile


The Rec and AM2 players are playing "recreational" golf, and are not supposed to be fighting for anything. The AM1 and Open divisions are supposed to be the divisions for "fighting" competition.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Jefrey A. Brother
King Jefrey


Joined: 05 Feb 2010
Posts: 10042
Location: First tee

PostPosted: Mon Oct 25, 2010 10:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

John Pytel wrote:

2) Don't give the AM2's the lowest of anything. Give them appropriate points for how they finished in their respective class.

Either way appears to require players to be in a class. Declared or determined. Highest level you competed at that season or something.

Have the same point system but award the points based on how you finished in your class. Ties in finishing place go to the tougher class awarded first.

So something like.

1st in pro gets first in PC points.
1st in AM1 gets 2nd PC points.
1st in AM2 gets 3rd PC points.
2nd in pro gets 4th PC points.
2nd in AM1 gets 5th PC points.
2nd in AM2 gets 6th PC points.


This encourages sandbagging.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
John Pytel
Sultan of Swill


Joined: 17 Aug 2005
Posts: 3697
Location: Ottawa, Ontario, Canada

PostPosted: Mon Oct 25, 2010 10:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jefrey A. Brother wrote:
lissyssil wrote:
Alternately, PC Points could be grouped into divisions as well, with AM1/Open sharing a division, and being the "Elite PC Division", while AM2/AM3 share a division that serves as the "Entry PC Division"...

Because really, the likelihood, in any event, of an AM2/AM3 player winning the overall PC Points title is zero.

Give the Rec and AM2 players something genuine to fight for. smile


The Rec and AM2 players are playing "recreational" golf, and are not supposed to be fighting for anything. The AM1 and Open divisions are supposed to be the divisions for "fighting" competition.


Despite the skill level I see AM2 more competive OR at least a competitive field to win. AM1's came from somewhere. Yes lots of "bottom" card AM2's are recreational but the same approriate analysis goes for Pro and AM1 divisions because of pride or dysfunctional masters divisions to name a few reasons.

Point being classes should be of equal "make up" in awarding points.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Jefrey A. Brother
King Jefrey


Joined: 05 Feb 2010
Posts: 10042
Location: First tee

PostPosted: Mon Oct 25, 2010 10:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

John Pytel wrote:

Despite the skill level I see AM2 more competive OR at least a competitive field to win. AM1's came from somewhere. Yes lots of "bottom" card AM2's are recreational but the same approriate analysis goes for Pro and AM1 divisions because of pride or dysfunctional masters divisions to name a few reasons.

Point being classes should be of equal "make up" in awarding points.


Fair enough, and I would agree the competition at the AM2 level can be fierce from tournament to tournament. My apologies to those competing at the AM2 level. Though, I stick to my guns with the Rec division.

Before this continues, I'm not looking for a new way to award points, nor am I interested in starting over and looking at dividing up the series into "classes".

I was asked earlier in the year why an AM2 player wasn't earning points, and I realized that the AM2 players weren't getting their screen time. As much as I agree with you that AM2 players are competing-at their level-and that AM1 players came from somewhere, I am not about to reward an AM2 player higher points than an AM1 or Open player, just because they won their division. There are a lot of factors that come into play when you play in a tougher divsion, play on a top card, etc.

My definition of inclusion doesn't mean to have an AM2 win the PC series. It just means to include them.

If someone would like to start an AM2 series I would support that.
_________________
Boyle says BOOM!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
John Pytel
Sultan of Swill


Joined: 17 Aug 2005
Posts: 3697
Location: Ottawa, Ontario, Canada

PostPosted: Mon Oct 25, 2010 11:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jefrey A. Brother wrote:
John Pytel wrote:

Despite the skill level I see AM2 more competive OR at least a competitive field to win. AM1's came from somewhere. Yes lots of "bottom" card AM2's are recreational but the same approriate analysis goes for Pro and AM1 divisions because of pride or dysfunctional masters divisions to name a few reasons.

Point being classes should be of equal "make up" in awarding points.


Fair enough, and I would agree the competition at the AM2 level can be fierce from tournament to tournament. My apologies to those competing at the AM2 level. Though, I stick to my guns with the Rec division.
.


I agree on Rec as well.

Jefrey A. Brother wrote:


Before this continues, I'm not looking for a new way to award points, nor am I interested in starting over and looking at dividing up the series into "classes".

I was asked earlier in the year why an AM2 player wasn't earning points, and I realized that the AM2 players weren't getting their screen time. As much as I agree with you that AM2 players are competing-at their level-and that AM1 players came from somewhere, I am not about to reward an AM2 player higher points than an AM1 or Open player, just because they won their division. There are a lot of factors that come into play when you play in a tougher divsion, play on a top card, etc.

My definition of inclusion doesn't mean to have an AM2 win the PC series. It just means to include them.

If someone would like to start an AM2 series I would support that.


This is why I was asking the AM2 winning question. I don't think there's any way to meaningfully include them without some point awarding adjustments. Throwing pennies to the AM2's when the other classes get dollars won't make AM2's feel more included.

Quote:
I am not about to reward an AM2 player higher points than an AM1 or Open player, just because they won their division. There are a lot of factors that come into play when you play in a tougher divsion, play on a top card, etc.


There are lots of factors all over the place. Factors such as the Tier of points is made higher for Pro's because of the other divisions participation numbers. Nice to beat a small Pro field then earn large Tier points for adding in all the AM1, AM2, AM3/Rec field into the Tier. Lot's of evidence of this. How many "open"players really participated at the Plaid?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Jefrey A. Brother
King Jefrey


Joined: 05 Feb 2010
Posts: 10042
Location: First tee

PostPosted: Mon Oct 25, 2010 12:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

John Pytel wrote:

This is why I was asking the AM2 winning question. I don't think there's any way to meaningfully include them without some point awarding adjustments. Throwing pennies to the AM2's when the other classes get dollars won't make AM2's feel more included.


Which was why they weren't included in the first place. Well not really, they weren't included because they didn't play the same tees as everyone else.

Quote:

There are lots of factors all over the place. Factors such as the Tier of points is made higher for Pro's because of the other divisions participation numbers. Nice to beat a small Pro field then earn large Tier points for adding in all the AM1, AM2, AM3/Rec field into the Tier. Lot's of evidence of this. How many "open"players really participated at the Plaid?


The only tournament that had a "pro" division was the CC. In any US state, the top player in Ottawa would be competing in the top ranks of AM1.

How many "Open" players played in the Plaid? None. It was called AM1. All the players in that division were trying to win the Plaid. Simon Belanger played on the top card for round 2 (in another division he wouldn't be here), and Stretch Mark also played on the top card (in another divsion he wouldn't be there).

So what you're saying is the PC winner this year only won because he had points awarded based on all the players he beat, on the same course, and that included players with less experience and because of that the points were inflated, and therefore the win was inflated?

So instead, the PC points should only include "open" players. The BS would therefore only include the "open" players, therefore excluding everyone else. I'm good with that. That's a lot less work for me.

Quote:
Nice to beat a small Pro field then earn large Tier points for adding in all the AM1, AM2, AM3/Rec field into the Tier.


Or, the winner beat everyone playing that day. Explain this more please.
_________________
Boyle says BOOM!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
John Pytel
Sultan of Swill


Joined: 17 Aug 2005
Posts: 3697
Location: Ottawa, Ontario, Canada

PostPosted: Mon Oct 25, 2010 12:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jefrey A. Brother wrote:
John Pytel wrote:

This is why I was asking the AM2 winning question. I don't think there's any way to meaningfully include them without some point awarding adjustments. Throwing pennies to the AM2's when the other classes get dollars won't make AM2's feel more included.


Which was why they weren't included in the first place. Well not really, they weren't included because they didn't play the same tees as everyone else.

Quote:

There are lots of factors all over the place. Factors such as the Tier of points is made higher for Pro's because of the other divisions participation numbers. Nice to beat a small Pro field then earn large Tier points for adding in all the AM1, AM2, AM3/Rec field into the Tier. Lot's of evidence of this. How many "open"players really participated at the Plaid?


The only tournament that had a "pro" division was the CC. In any US state, the top player in Ottawa would be competing in the top ranks of AM1.

How many "Open" players played in the Plaid? None. It was called AM1. All the players in that division were trying to win the Plaid. Simon Belanger played on the top card for round 2 (in another division he wouldn't be here), and Stretch Mark also played on the top card (in another divsion he wouldn't be there).

So what you're saying is the PC winner this year only won because he had points awarded based on all the players he beat, on the same course, and that included players with less experience and because of that the points were inflated, and therefore the win was inflated?

So instead, the PC points should only include "open" players. The BS would therefore only include the "open" players, therefore excluding everyone else. I'm good with that. That's a lot less work for me.

Quote:
Nice to beat a small Pro field then earn large Tier points for adding in all the AM1, AM2, AM3/Rec field into the Tier.


Or, the winner beat everyone playing that day. Explain this more please.


A few things in general then I'll post and try and answer specifics.

To me I treat Open and Pro as the same in this discussion but I recognize there really is more "classes" across the whole spectrum.

The second is that "classes" are being adjusted at the event level to support the events purposes but not necessarily at the PC level. Plaid is a great example. Whole event is considered AM1 and therefore the Tier is inflated. Remember my point being that I consider it of equal or better value for an AM2 to beat a larger AM2 field than I do a "open" player beating a smaller open field. In the context of inclusion and equitable points recognition. Let's not discount the potential value to have more competition present in the fields with more participants. That should encourage more competition and participation in my mind.

Some 2 players AM3 fields that later on become only AM2 fields. I may need some clarifications on the tier's and points as I could be not seeing things correct. Is the Tier set only by the Open and AM1 field totals?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Jefrey A. Brother
King Jefrey


Joined: 05 Feb 2010
Posts: 10042
Location: First tee

PostPosted: Mon Oct 25, 2010 12:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

John Pytel wrote:

Remember my point being that I consider it of equal or better value for an AM2 to beat a larger AM2 field than I do a "open" player beating a smaller open field.


The open player didn't just beat the smaller open field. At most events in Ottawa, they beat the WHOLE field because they all played the same tees.

Quote:

In the context of inclusion and equitable points recognition.


Equitable points recognition. I'm not interested in giving "equitable" points for a series that was designed to recongize the best golfers in the city. We did this discussion last year. The BS series and adjusted scores allow players to see where they finished according to ability.

Quote:
Let's not discount the potential value to have more competition present in the fields with more participants. That should encourage more competition and participation in my mind.


Are you saying you think that if the PC points honoured the AM2 victor AND the AM1 victor AND the Open victor with the same amount points there would be more participation in the events?

Quote:
Is the Tier set only by the Open and AM1 field totals?


The tier is set based on my decision that the Plaid, the CC and LNF are the top (read: most prestigious) events of the season, so they are tiered Tier 1 events. Are you asking about point allocations? They are based on the number of players in AM1 and Open that are playing the same tees.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Jefrey A. Brother
King Jefrey


Joined: 05 Feb 2010
Posts: 10042
Location: First tee

PostPosted: Mon Oct 25, 2010 12:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

After this discussion I am withdrawing my decision to give players who don't play the Open and AM1 tees PC points.

I do not want seem like the series is "Throwing pennies to the AM2's when the other classes get dollars..."

This is a series to recognize the top golfers in Ottawa. I recognize the AM2 and Rec field as stages in a golfers career and I applaud the accomplishments they acheive at this level. Most events acknowledge the achievements of these players and they should. The AM2 player will get better and will join the ranks of the AM1s and maybe compete in the top divisions of Ottawa.

I was wrong to think that the PC Series needs to be inclusive.

I will contemplate wether to include AM1 as I do not want to "inflate" points and give the impression that the President Cup winner did so with controversy.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
John Pytel
Sultan of Swill


Joined: 17 Aug 2005
Posts: 3697
Location: Ottawa, Ontario, Canada

PostPosted: Mon Oct 25, 2010 1:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
The tier is set based on my decision that the Plaid, the CC and LNF are the top (read: most prestigious) events of the season, so they are tiered Tier 1 events. Are you asking about point allocations? They are based on the number of players in AM1 and Open that are playing the same tees


I was asking about point allocations.

This is where I see people ranging from AM3 to AM1 in the point allocation totalls and I think speaks to the classes at the events or lack there of where people up class.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
John Pytel
Sultan of Swill


Joined: 17 Aug 2005
Posts: 3697
Location: Ottawa, Ontario, Canada

PostPosted: Mon Oct 25, 2010 1:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't think there's anything wrong with thinking or asking or confirming that it can or can't be more inclusive. Yes we did have this discussion last year. I think it was good then and good again.

Unless AM2 plays the same tee's it's almost impossible logistically to rate them.

This is a perfect system to reward the top golfer in the city. I don't advocate any change to that. It may be a system (right or wrong) that encourages people to play over there head in AM1 to participate.

Nothing changes the fact that this is an series that about 6-8 people in the region have a chance to participate in. Win is even smaller group.

I just see it as measurement system for the few "open" players that will reward "AM1" players under the right conditions but will never crown them a winner.

My comment on the pennies and dollars is that you may create more names and nominal points on the PC list. That could be considered inclussive and rewarding. To me, and that's just me, they'd be participation points only and not competition rewards driven. Fools Gold.

Maybe even a simple excercise to assign a class for each participant and recognize the highest point getter in each class. You get the plaque instead of the trophy.

I think this is where we all value and appreciate the handicap system of the club. We do use it so it's not like PC is the only system with the Saucer points. I think Andrew won this and that reflects on him becoming a better golfer. That's the reward for who's got better that year. I don't think that includes AM2's though.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
John Pytel
Sultan of Swill


Joined: 17 Aug 2005
Posts: 3697
Location: Ottawa, Ontario, Canada

PostPosted: Mon Oct 25, 2010 1:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Are you saying you think that if the PC points honoured the AM2 victor AND the AM1 victor AND the Open victor with the same amount points there would be more participation in the events?



Regardless of "same points" or not I don't know if it would encourage more participation in events. I'd like to think it would encourage more interest in the PC race.

Or some more emphasize on the Saucer points and system for that "inclusive" feeling.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   This topic is locked: you cannot edit posts or make replies.    ODGC Forums Forum Index -> Presidents Cup All times are GMT - 5 Hours
Goto page 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7  Next
Page 1 of 7

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum


Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group
RSS Feed for Latest Posts