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clausr
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PostPosted: Tue May 25, 2010 9:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

People flip discs because of convenience not because they don't know the rules. It especially makes sense at a course like CF. When in the shnarb, it just easier to flip than pull out a mini and loose it when it sinks into the leaves. A flipped disc is more likely to stay where it is.

If the td of an event (non PDGA I assume) is OK with flipping discs it would be a local rule and therefor not against the rules. Or a casual round, card members think its OK, again you're not breaking local rules.
Personally unless I'm in a sanctioned PDGA event, I don't give a crap if people do it, they don't get an advantage.
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Thumber
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PostPosted: Tue May 25, 2010 9:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I get the casual of it claus, although I am not sure why people feel entitled to flip a disc, based on the Ruling of the Ruling Rules God. The 30 cm is from the back of the disc, by flipping the disc you are giving yourself an extra 20-some cms.

It can certainly make a difference when you are jammed up against a tree with no where for a foot to go comfortably.

Anyhoo,

I think the answer is that the fictional Andros used to illustrate the example was fine with what he did
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Jefrey A. Brother
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PostPosted: Tue May 25, 2010 9:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thumber wrote:
Can the marker disc be placed either in front of behind the thrown disc?


No.

Quote:
803.03 Marking the Lie

A. After each throw, the thrown disc must be left where it came to rest until the lie is established by the placing of a marker. This can be done by placing a mini marker disc on the playing surface between the hole and the disc, directly in line with the hole, on the line of play, touching the thrown disc. A player may instead choose, without touching or repositioning the thrown disc, to use the thrown disc as the marker. The marker may not be moved until the throw is released. A marker inadvertently moved prior to the throw shall be returned to its correct location.

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Jefrey A. Brother
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PostPosted: Tue May 25, 2010 9:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

clausr wrote:
When in the shnarb, it just easier to flip than pull out a mini and loose it when it sinks into the leaves.


Acutally, it's easier to just leave the disc there and throw from behind it. big grin
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Thumber
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PostPosted: Tue May 25, 2010 10:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jefrey A. Brother wrote:
clausr wrote:
When in the shnarb, it just easier to flip than pull out a mini and loose it when it sinks into the leaves.


Acutally, it's easier to just leave the disc there and throw from behind it. big grin


You must admit it is odd that in placing your marker you are actually changing where your foot can be. I'm surprised there hasn't been an attempt to rectify this so you always have 30 cm behind the closest point of the disc to the basket
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John Pytel
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PostPosted: Tue May 25, 2010 10:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
803.03 Marking the Lie

A. After each throw, the thrown disc must be left where it came to rest until the lie is established by the placing of a marker. This can be done by placing a mini marker disc on the playing surface between the hole and the disc, directly in line with the hole, on the line of play, touching the thrown disc. A player may instead choose, without touching or repositioning the thrown disc, to use the thrown disc as the marker. The marker may not be moved until the throw is released. A marker inadvertently moved prior to the throw shall be returned to its correct location.
[/quote]

That's what the TD was trying to explain to these fictional guys.

I give up on explaining that there is no distance advantage gain if you flip your disc properly. Front edge become back edge.
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clausr
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PostPosted: Tue May 25, 2010 10:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Acutally, it's easier to just leave the disc there and throw from behind it. big grin[/quote]

True, most of the time you just play from behind you're disc where it lies. This only applies is when you choose to take a lie 20cm in front of the other lie (ie marking/flipping) for one reason or another.
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deuce
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PostPosted: Tue May 25, 2010 10:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have to agree with Thumber here. It seems inconsistent that your 30cm lie "window" changes based on whether you decide to place your marker disc.
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Thumber
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PostPosted: Tue May 25, 2010 10:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
I give up on explaining that there is no distance advantage gain if you flip your disc properly. Front edge become back edge.


You gain the diameter of the thrown disc towards the basket....the distance advantage itself is trivial. Its more about the footing and changes to the sight line.

Flipping and placing a marker results in status quo distance wise (aesthetics aside)

But choosing between the thrown disc and placing a marker is a place where a player can exploit a loop hole to gain a small advantage for their next throw.

Think of the times you have been in the woods where an extra 21 cms forward could have made it so your hand could more freely and not hit branches.

Its an interesting loop hole to keep in mind
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John Pytel
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PostPosted: Tue May 25, 2010 10:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thumber wrote:
Quote:
I give up on explaining that there is no distance advantage gain if you flip your disc properly. Front edge become back edge.


You gain the diameter of the thrown disc towards the basket....the distance advantage itself is trivial. Its more about the footing and changes to the sight line.

Flipping and placing a marker results in status quo distance wise (aesthetics aside)

But choosing between the thrown disc and placing a marker is a place where a player can exploit a loop hole to gain a small advantage for their next throw.

Think of the times you have been in the woods where an extra 21 cms forward could have made it so your hand could more freely and not hit branches.

Its an interesting loop hole to keep in mind


I still don't see any way you can gain a distance advantage forward. You can choose not to mark and then lose the disc diameter but that's it. You mark to the forward point of the thronw disc and then the back of the marker disc is then that same point. Am I wrong in how one should mark?
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Thumber
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PostPosted: Tue May 25, 2010 10:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

According to the Ruling ruler of the rules, if you leave your disc in situ, you get 30 cm from the back edge of the disc. If you place a marker, you get 30 cm from the back edge of the mini. You place the mini in front of the disc before you pick up the disc. Thus, the mark moves forward the diameter of the thrown disc.

See how this works? CahMan Johnny!

BTW.....If we took the front edge of the disc, or the back edge of the mini, if one has been placed, as the mark then the whole conversation is mute as the point never changes
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Last edited by Thumber on Tue May 25, 2010 10:44 am; edited 1 time in total
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John Pytel
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PostPosted: Tue May 25, 2010 11:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thumber wrote:
According to the Ruling ruler of the rules, if you leave your disc in situ, you get 30 cm from the back edge of the disc. If you place a marker, you get 30 cm from the back edge of the mini. You place the mini in front of the disc before you pick up the disc. Thus, the mark moves forward the diameter of the thrown disc.

See how this works? CahMan Johnny!

BTW.....If we took the front edge of the disc, or the back edge of the mini, if one has been placed, as the mark then the whole conversation is mute as the point never changes


Ok I got it. There is no advantage gained by flipping a disc which is what you'd been saying all along. No? There's no gain flipping properly or marking edit boy.
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Thumber
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PostPosted: Tue May 25, 2010 11:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

John Pytel wrote:
Thumber wrote:
According to the Ruling ruler of the rules, if you leave your disc in situ, you get 30 cm from the back edge of the disc. If you place a marker, you get 30 cm from the back edge of the mini. You place the mini in front of the disc before you pick up the disc. Thus, the mark moves forward the diameter of the thrown disc.

See how this works? CahMan Johnny!

BTW.....If we took the front edge of the disc, or the back edge of the mini, if one has been placed, as the mark then the whole conversation is mute as the point never changes


Ok I got it. There is no advantage gained by flipping a disc which is what you'd been saying all along. No? There's no gain flipping properly or marking edit boy.


sure.....the discussion isn't about flipping as that's something you should never do but I think we are in agreement. Flipping and marking = same spot
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Paul Bourgeois
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PostPosted: Tue May 25, 2010 12:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

deuce wrote:
I have to agree with Thumber here. It seems inconsistent that your 30cm lie "window" changes based on whether you decide to place your marker disc.
You can call it whatever you want. Ambiguous, inconsistent, unthinkable, or even a gift. Use it to your advantage every time you are able to.
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Mike McCormick
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PostPosted: Tue May 25, 2010 12:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Is there some rule about the size of the mini marker? Could you use an Ultimate disc for the mini marker thus gaining a few more centimetres?
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Thumber
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PostPosted: Tue May 25, 2010 12:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mike McCormick wrote:
Is there some rule about the size of the mini marker? Could you use an Ultimate disc for the mini marker thus gaining a few more centimetres?


If you use the marker then the mark is always from the back edge of it.....you could use a garbage can lid and it wouldn't change a thing
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andros
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PostPosted: Tue May 25, 2010 12:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mike McCormick wrote:
Is there some rule about the size of the mini marker? Could you use an Ultimate disc for the mini marker thus gaining a few more centimetres?


PDGA wrote:

802.02 Mini Marker Discs

A. Mini marker discs shall be used to mark a player's lie as
required by these rules. Mini marker discs must have a diameter of between 7
and 15 centimeters and a height not exceeding 3 centimeters.
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Mike McCormick
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PostPosted: Tue May 25, 2010 1:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thumber wrote:
Mike McCormick wrote:
Is there some rule about the size of the mini marker? Could you use an Ultimate disc for the mini marker thus gaining a few more centimetres?


If you use the marker then the mark is always from the back edge of it.....you could use a garbage can lid and it wouldn't change a thing


I should think before I write ....
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Paul Bourgeois
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PostPosted: Tue May 25, 2010 1:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thumber wrote:
sure.....the discussion isn't about flipping as that's something you should never do but I think we are in agreement. Flipping and marking = same spot
I wish I could agree. Marking doesn't see you move the thrown disc, which until marked is considered to determine the lie once it comes to rest. As soon as you flip it, you've disturbed the disc at rest.

Petty, you may think, but would anyone playing white ball allow another person to "roll the ball half a circumference length to check the bottom of the ball, then roll it back"?

No. You are expected to mark your lie, not manipulate it. The fact that you can have two different lies in disc golf is inconsequential to legal and fair play. Use the one that best suits your next shot.
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Thumber
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PostPosted: Tue May 25, 2010 1:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Paul Bourgeois wrote:
Thumber wrote:
sure.....the discussion isn't about flipping as that's something you should never do but I think we are in agreement. Flipping and marking = same spot
I wish I could agree. Marking doesn't see you move the thrown disc, which until marked is considered to determine the lie once it comes to rest. As soon as you flip it, you've disturbed the disc at rest.

Petty, you may think, but would anyone playing white ball allow another person to "roll the ball half a circumference length to check the bottom of the ball, then roll it back"?

No. You are expected to mark your lie, not manipulate it. The fact that you can have two different lies in disc golf is inconsequential to legal and fair play. Use the one that best suits your next shot.


In ball golf you would never have an alternate lie based on if you marked the ball or not. That was my only point. Its kind of silly.
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