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Rolly
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Joined: 11 Oct 2005
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Location: South East Division

PostPosted: Tue Apr 28, 2009 5:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

if your disc is closest to the tee, you should ask right away before the group has moved to the other side of the fairway
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Mike McCormick
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Joined: 25 Nov 2000
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 28, 2009 8:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thumber wrote:


On 5 CF you can be in the middle and lost as well. So if you have one guy in the bush, one guy short in the long junk, what does the group do? Logic says you split the group up and look 2 and 2 to maintain flow as best possible. But this is actually short changing both players whose lie isn't established by denying them 2 extra sets of eyes for 3 minutes.


The timer could only start on the furthest person from the pin, I believe. So logic results in that person being short changed, not the second.

After the furthest person's 3 minutes are up, he would have to re-tee. While he walks back up the hill, the second person could ask for everyones help. After the first person has reteed (and gets closer than the second lost one), only then could the timer start on the second lost disk. But you would be doing so without the eyes of the person who had to retee because it could take 3 minutes for him to get there.

Don't take my word for it but this is the way I would interpet the rule.
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Roxie
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Joined: 09 Nov 2005
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Location: Dog River

PostPosted: Tue Apr 28, 2009 8:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rolly wrote:
if your disc is closest to the tee, you should ask right away before the group has moved to the other side of the fairway


Exactly.

MikeMC wrote:

After the furthest person's 3 minutes are up, he would have to re-tee. While he walks back up the hill, the second person could ask for everyones help. After the first person has reteed (and gets closer than the second lost one), only then could the timer start on the second lost disk. But you would be doing so without the eyes of the person who had to retee because it could take 3 minutes for him to get there


A disc shall be declared lost if the player cannot locate it within three minutes after arriving at the spot where it was last seen by the group or an official.

His second shot isn't lost until he's arrived and looked for 3 mins.
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burjwahzeh
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Joined: 13 Dec 2005
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 28, 2009 8:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

This rule is ambiguous at best.
Fairness and reasoned judgement have to be brought into play in order to properly assess the cases presented here.

It is not fair that one person's penalty should turn into another person's advantage.

801.02 provides guidelines for the order of play, so Mike's case whereby the first player loses their disc but the second player has more time to find his can be reasonaly addressed (IMO), if the second player honestly spends the first 3 minutes looking for the first players missing disc, walks to the spot where they believe their lie should be, and conducts himself in a way such that he is not in violation of any courtesy rules (801.01 says he can't provide a distraction; if the player on the teepad has to tell him, "hey, jim, lift your head up so that you don't get hit", Jim is demonstrating a discourteous act towards the first player.

There is no rule in the book that says you can't approach your lie ahead of another players; only that you may not create a distraction for the person who's turn it is to throw. Someone that habitually races ahead to his disc is creating a distraction, but where everyone has been looking for another player's disc, it is reasonable for them to walk ahead and assume a position near where their throw landed while the first player walks back to the teepad.

Now, if Jim calls to his buddies to look for his disc while the first player is walking up to the teepad, Jim could be assessed a courtesy violation for ignoring the order of play. The first player clearly must take a stance and throw his next (tee) shot because he's furthest from the target.

Establishing a lie before everyone has left the teepad is a courtesy violation for the blatant disregard of the order of play. Asking people to help search for a missing disc is clearly an attempt to establish a lie, and in this case it's out of turn.

Jim hasn't broken the 3 minute rule. He's broken the courtesy rule, though.

If this is his first courtesy violation of the round, warn him. If he acts discourteous again, stroke him.


Last edited by burjwahzeh on Tue Apr 28, 2009 9:08 am; edited 1 time in total
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Thumber
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Joined: 08 Nov 2007
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 28, 2009 9:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

What would the ruling be on refusing to assist in looking for someone else's disc? I thought the poison ivy situation is a perfect example. Could you be issued a courtesy violation for refusing to look?
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Roxie
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 28, 2009 9:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Stroke me then!
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burjwahzeh
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 28, 2009 9:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thumber wrote:
What would the ruling be on refusing to assist in looking for someone else's disc? I thought the poison ivy situation is a perfect example. Could you be issued a courtesy violation for refusing to look?

Refusing to look: yes. It's a courtesy violation. You must help look. There is no room for primadonas.

Refusing to look in poison ivy: No courtesy violation. It is not reasonable to expect that a person should endanger themselves in any way in order to comply with the rules. It is not discourteous to protect your health and well-being. People can look for a disc without entering the poison ivy. They can walk around the poison ivy, they can scan the edge of the poison ivy but you can't order them to march into it. It isn't reasonable to expect that.

If you don't want to go into the poison ivy, make a shot that gives it the respect it deserves.

This is all just an application of the rules of fairness and reasonable interpretation.
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Thumber
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 28, 2009 9:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Roxie wrote:
Stroke me then!


ummmm....no, I'll pass thx.
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Jefrey A. Brother
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Joined: 05 Feb 2010
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 26, 2012 11:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ottawa_adam wrote:
Except the AM3 card was waiting for the top open card for most of round 3. In fact, we sat waiting 15 minutes for them to find a lost disc at hole 16.

I realize we could have called them on the time but it's not my style to yell at the card ahead of me during a tournament.


Quote:
803.11 Lost Disc
A. A disc shall be declared lost if the player cannot locate it within three minutes after arriving at the spot where it was last seen by the group or an official. Two players or an official must note when the timing of three minutes begins. All players of the group must, upon request, assist in searching for the disc for the full three minutes before the disc is declared lost. The disc is considered lost immediately upon the expiration of the three minute time limit


Quote:
3.2 Pace of Play
A. All competitors shall play without undue delay and will make every effort to keep up with the group in front of them. Players are required to quickly move from the completion of one hole to the tee area of the next hole. Also, while advancing down the fairway, the player shall not unduly delay play by his or her actions.

B. A player causing undue delays may be issued an excessive time violation by tournament officials. Please see PDGA Rules of Play 801.03B Excessive Time regarding specific penalties.


Quote:
801.03 Excessive Time
A. A maximum of 30 seconds is allowed to each player to make a throw after:

The previous player has thrown; and,
The player has taken a reasonable time to arrive at the disc and mark the lie; and,
The playing area is clear and free of distractions.


B. A player shall receive a warning for the first excessive time violation if observed by two or more players of the group or an official. The player shall be assessed one penalty throw for each subsequent excessive time violation in the same round if observed by two or more players of the group or an official.

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