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BigBrotherPenton
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 27, 2009 1:00 pm    Post subject: Rule of the Week 4 - 803.11 Lost Disc Reply with quote

803.11 Lost Disc

A. A disc shall be declared lost if the player cannot locate it within three minutes after arriving at the spot where it was last seen by the group or an official. Two players or an official must note when the timing of three minutes begins. All players of the group must, upon request, assist in searching for the disc for the full three minutes before the disc is declared lost. The disc is considered lost immediately upon the expiration of the three minute time limit

B. A player whose disc is declared lost shall receive one penalty throw. If the throw was made from the tee, the player will re-tee for the next shot. If not made from the tee, the group will determine the approximate lie from which the throw was made, and the player will throw again from that lie. In all cases the original throw plus one penalty throw shall be counted in the player's score.

C. If it is discovered, prior to the completion of the tournament, that a player's disc that was declared lost had been removed or taken, then the player shall have two throws removed from his or her score.

D. A marker disc that is lost shall be replaced in its approximate lie as agreed to by a majority of the group or an official with no penalty.
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Roxie
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 27, 2009 1:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

This one is pretty cut and dry. The only thing I've noticed over the years is the 3 minute rule being stretched out.
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Thumber
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 27, 2009 1:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The only thing that is tough is that you have to re-tee for a drive and can't take the strokes and throw from where the disc was lost (approximately). I've seen more than one person huff and puff back up #5 CF. All the more incentive to keep in on the short stuff
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Chuck Shick
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 27, 2009 1:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

But if the lie is established, how can it be lost? big grin
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burjwahzeh
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 27, 2009 2:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thumber wrote:
The only thing that is tough is that you have to re-tee for a drive and can't take the strokes and throw from where the disc was lost (approximately). I've seen more than one person huff and puff back up #5 CF. All the more incentive to keep in on the short stuff

If you've made your card walk through the woods for three minutes, not because they want to, but because the HAVE to, you deserve to make the walk.

OB? Oh well.
Lost? Not good form. Make the walk.
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burjwahzeh
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 27, 2009 2:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Roxie wrote:
This one is pretty cut and dry. The only thing I've noticed over the years is the 3 minute rule being stretched out.

Yup.

Makes you want to carry a kitchen timer, especially when you're looking for someone's hero throw that was destined from the outset to fly off into never never land.
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Thumber
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 27, 2009 2:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

burjwahzeh wrote:
Thumber wrote:
The only thing that is tough is that you have to re-tee for a drive and can't take the strokes and throw from where the disc was lost (approximately). I've seen more than one person huff and puff back up #5 CF. All the more incentive to keep in on the short stuff

If you've made your card walk through the woods for three minutes, not because they want to, but because the HAVE to, you deserve to make the walk.

OB? Oh well.
Lost? Not good form. Make the walk.


I agree. I have seen the climb of shame a few times at CF. I believe I've even done it myself lol.
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burjwahzeh
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 27, 2009 2:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Chuck Shick wrote:
But if the lie is established, how can it be lost? big grin
{Note: NOT AN OFFICIAL RULES INTERPRETATION!}
Oh, that one's easy.
You can't assume a stance or place a marker disc if you can't find the lie. All throws are preceeded by a legal stance, and players always have the right to place a marker disc.

Your lie exists in the grass or in the woods somewhere, but if you can't find where in three minutes, well, you'd better walk back to where you last threw and make another shot. Chances are you'll find it next time, because everyone is now standing around where you're likely to shoot.
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burjwahzeh
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 27, 2009 2:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thumber wrote:
I agree. I have seen the climb of shame a few times at CF. I believe I've even done it myself lol.

Ah, yes. The climb of Shane. laughing
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burjwahzeh
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 27, 2009 2:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thumber wrote:
...I've seen more than one person huff and puff back up #5 CF. All the more incentive to keep in on the short stuff

Or to throw a provisional.
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burjwahzeh
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 27, 2009 2:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

There's another hole in the rules of disc golf here.

A person has 30 seconds from the time they are reasonably expected to arrive at their disc to make their next throw.

A person has 3 minutes to look for their disc, though. Of course, until all players on the card are gathered to find the disc, the three minutes can't start.

Think of this case:

Jeff is on a card with Jeff, Geoff, and Geoff...
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Thumber
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 27, 2009 2:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

burjwahzeh wrote:
Thumber wrote:
...I've seen more than one person huff and puff back up #5 CF. All the more incentive to keep in on the short stuff

Or to throw a provisional.


What is the rule on throwing a provisional? When can you throw one? Is there any penalty if you don't use it?
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burjwahzeh
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 27, 2009 2:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thumber wrote:
burjwahzeh wrote:
Thumber wrote:
...I've seen more than one person huff and puff back up #5 CF. All the more incentive to keep in on the short stuff

Or to throw a provisional.


What is the rule on throwing a provisional? When can you throw one? Is there any penalty if you don't use it?

Perhaps a subject for another week.
Have a look at the rule. It's in 803.01
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Roxie
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 27, 2009 3:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

burjwahzeh wrote:
There's another hole in the rules of disc golf here.

A person has 30 seconds from the time they are reasonably expected to arrive at their disc to make their next throw.

A person has 3 minutes to look for their disc, though. Of course, until all players on the card are gathered to find the disc, the three minutes can't start.



A. A disc shall be declared lost if the player cannot locate it within three minutes after arriving at the spot where it was last seen by the group or an official. Two players or an official must note when the timing of three minutes begins. All players of the group must, upon request, assist in searching for the disc for the full three minutes before the disc is declared lost. The disc is considered lost immediately upon the expiration of the three minute time limit


I read this as - The clock starts when the player starts looking for it from the spot it was last seen. They can look for three minutes by him/herself. If they call the rest of the group in, after looking by themselves for three minutes, they don't get a fresh 3 minutes. It is your right to look by yourself or with help, just not both.

I also read this as - You look for 2 mins by yourself, then call the group into help, you've got 1 min left.
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burjwahzeh
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 27, 2009 3:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Roxie wrote:

I read this as - The clock starts when the player starts looking for it from the spot it was last seen. They can look for three minutes by him/herself. If they call the rest of the group in, after looking by themselves for three minutes, they don't get a fresh 3 minutes. It is your right to look by yourself or with help, just not both.

I also read this as - You look for 2 mins by yourself, then call the group into help, you've got 1 min left.

I like the way you're reading it better than the way I'm reading it. Thing is, two players or an official have to announce the start of the three minutes, so you're always going to get some "bonus search time".

Next, it's a courtesy violation if you don't look for the whole three minutes, but the three minutes is supposed to start once the player arrives at the spot where it was last seen. I'll give YOU a courtesy violation for starting the three minutes before I've had a chance to get to where your disc was last seen.

I guess that means that we're all supposed to walk huddled together like a kindergarten class to each others discs.

Whoa.


Last edited by burjwahzeh on Mon Apr 27, 2009 3:36 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Rolly
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 27, 2009 5:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Im so glad you have to walk back for lost discs to re-throw. I remember people taking the cheesiest drops on the side of the fairway where the disc obviously was no where near.
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BigBrotherPenton
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 27, 2009 7:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rolly wrote:
Im so glad you have to walk back for lost discs to re-throw. I remember people taking the cheesiest drops on the side of the fairway where the disc obviously was no where near.


At Pinafore one year I lost a disc and the "last place seen" was jail. I would have much preferred to re-tee. Took a circle 6.
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burjwahzeh
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 27, 2009 8:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rolly wrote:
Im so glad you have to walk back for lost discs to re-throw. I remember people taking the cheesiest drops on the side of the fairway where the disc obviously was no where near.


Oh, yeah, and the whole thing works out to stroke plus distance for a penalty.

It's a great rule. If you lose a disc on your drive, you're shooting 3 off the tee. Perfect. It's a great penalty for forcing the rest of your card to trudge around in the thickets looking for your errant shot. Keep it in the fairway!

A lot of people like to think of a lost disc as equal to an OB shot in terms of the penalty. It isn't even close, and for very good reasons.

Remember, the first throw counts (why would you not think it does? The disc may be lost, but that throw isn't something you're allowed to forget), the re-tee counts (of course, it's the shot that you will use to establish your new lie), and you get a penalty throw on top (for making everyone look for the first shot).

When this rule was "clarified" a couple of years ago, it was a great step forward.
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Mike McCormick
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 27, 2009 8:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

[quote="Roxie]
I also read this as - You look for 2 mins by yourself, then call the group into help, you've got 1 min left.[/quote]

So when you tee off say #5 and your disc sails off to the left into the woods and everyone elses goes to the basket or down the right side, at what point do you 'ask' for help? You are in the woods looking for your disc and two people out by the basket yell '3 minutes'. You ask for help. It takes them 3 minutes to get to where you are. Your time is up before they can ever start helping you.

Or another scenario, old 18 at JCP. You ask for help and you hear "can't, there is poison ivy'. For each person that does not help, do you get to add their 3 minutes to yours?

Never liked this rule, probably never will.
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Thumber
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 27, 2009 9:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mike McCormick wrote:


Or another scenario, old 18 at JCP. You ask for help and you hear "can't, there is poison ivy'. For each person that does not help, do you get to add their 3 minutes to yours?



This is an interesting point Mike. There is no way i am wading into poison ivy to look for someone's disc. Weeks of blisters trumps honor of the group in this scenario for me.

On 5 CF you can be in the middle and lost as well. So if you have one guy in the bush, one guy short in the long junk, what does the group do? Logic says you split the group up and look 2 and 2 to maintain flow as best possible. But this is actually short changing both players whose lie isn't established by denying them 2 extra sets of eyes for 3 minutes.
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