Ottawa Disc Golf Club

Reply to topic ODGC Forums Forum Index -> Disc Golf Rules & Course Safety -> 804.03 Scoring
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
burjwahzeh
Overflow Overlord


Joined: 13 Dec 2005
Posts: 4460
Location: Somewhere where my mind is not.

PostPosted: Mon Oct 27, 2008 9:26 am    Post subject: 804.03 Scoring Reply with quote

The PDGA Rule Book wrote:
804.03 Scoring
B.
After each hole is completed, the scorekeeper shall call out each player's name. The called player shall answer with the score in a manner that is clear to all players of the group and the scorekeeper. The scorekeeper shall record that score and read it back, in a manner that is
clear to all players of the group. If there is any disagreement about the score a player reports, the group must review the hole and attempt to arrive at the correct score. If the group cannot reach consensus on the player's score, they shall consult 803.01 D
G. After the scorecard is turned in, the total score as recorded shall stand with no appeal, except for the following circumstances:
(2) If it is determined that the total score was incorrectly recorded, either by an error on a hole score or by an error in totaling the hole scores, including omission of the total score, the director shall add two penalty throws to the correct total score. These penalty throws are not added when the TD (or an official designated by the TD, such as a course director) corrects a player's score for other infractions determined after this player had turned in an otherwise correct scorecard.

803.01 General
D.
Appeals:
(1) When a group cannot reach a majority decision regarding a ruling, the benefit of the doubt shall be given to the thrower. However, any player may seek the ruling of an official, and the official's ruling shall supersede the group's ruling. Any player desiring an appeal of the group's decision shall promptly and clearly express that desire to the group.

Consider the rules above, and in view of them, consider the following case:
You are playing on a card with three other players, Frank, Jim, and George. You are keeping score.

At the end of the third run you call out the names of the players to have them report their scores. Jim reports scoring a 5, including a penalty stroke for going out of bounds. However, you noticed that he made a shot that struck early wood. Completing the run in 4 strokes would have been an excellent score, so you ask if Jim really only took 4 strokes to arrive at a score of 5. Jim thinks about it, says, "yes, I took only 4 strokes", and after being reminded of how he struck early wood, and would have needed to can a 75' putt for his fourth stroke, Jim admits, "oh, I forgot about that shot. I really took five strokes. I got a 6 on that run."

Later in the round, the group plays a particularly challenging run. Upon finishing, you call out the players' names again to record scores. Jim claims to have scored a 4. Again, you question the score that Jim reports, after having seen him put his approach shot in the bush, and missing a putt. Jim says, "no, that is what I got." You follow by highlighting where his drive went (1), where his approach went (2), the safety or "out" shot (3), the missed putt (4), and the final putt (5). "Oooh," says Jim. "Sorry about that, I got a five."

Now, according to the rules above, Jim is allowed to continue to report bogus scores, whether he does it intentionally or unintentionally. It could be the case that Jim has difficulty counting. It could be the case that Jim would just rather forget about those bad shots as a means of exercising a particular mental approach to the game.

The rules for scoring, however, state that where the group doesn't agree with a score, they simply must "relive" the run until a majority decision is reached. The problem with this approach is that there is no motivation for Jim to report his actual score where somebody else in the group is able to recount it. It might seem a fundamental conflict to one of the most sanctimonial tennents of the game: Report an honest score.

It would be great to give Jim the benefit of the doubt the first time, and then, along with another player in the group, keep track of Jim's score and submit it separately to the TD at the end of the round. In this way, the error of submitting the wrong score would be corrected, and Jim would receive a two-stroke penalty.

This, however, is not allowed by the scoring rules. The rules are clear that the score must be recorded at the end of each run. In circumstances related to simply reporting an incorrect score, the players can work to resolve the correct score, and that is the end of it.

In the case above, Jim reported the incorrect score twice, and did nothing but require his group to pay more attention to what he does which is both distracting and unenjoyable for others on his card.

There is, however, a rule that is explicit about reporting scores. It is here:

The PDGA Rule Book wrote:
801.01 Courtesy
C.
Refusal to perform an action expected by the rules, such as
assisting in the search for a lost disc, moving discs or equipment, or
keeping score properly, etc., is a courtesy violation.
G. A player violating a courtesy rule may be warned by any
affected player, even if from another group, or by an official, with
all players of the group advised of the warning. The player shall be
assessed one penalty throw for each subsequent courtesy violation of
any type in the same round. Repeated violations of courtesy rules may
result in disqualification in accordance with section 804.05.

By this, Jim should have been warned that he had committed a courtesy violation the first time he submitted an incorrect score, and he should have been issued a penalty stroke for the second instance.
This, of course, is dependant upon the definition of "keeping score properly".

It would be easy to argue that "keeping score properly" is the sole domain of the person with the score card. They are the person keeping score, after all. However, the rules provide the following definition of a group:

The PDGA Rule Book wrote:
The competitors who are assigned to play a round together for the purpose of verifying scores and proper play in accordance with the rules.

Where the role of the group includes verifying scores, it can be argued that the role of the player is to keep their own score for verification. Repeatedly reporting an incorrect score can be penalized under 801.01, provided the rule is enforced as written.

{Edit History: All spelling and formatting.}


Last edited by burjwahzeh on Mon Oct 27, 2008 11:29 am; edited 3 times in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
surge
Champion of Chains


Joined: 06 Sep 2004
Posts: 2962
Location: With my discs!

PostPosted: Mon Oct 27, 2008 10:01 am    Post subject: Re: 804.03 Scoring Reply with quote

burjwahzeh wrote:

Jim should have been warned that he had committed a courtesy violation the first time he submitted an incorrect score, and he should haev been issued a penalty stroke for the second instance.


After a warning, issue penalty strokes. I bet that would jog his memory. big grin
Playing with someone who disregards the rules incessantly, even if they plead ignorance makes that someone your playing with a cheat.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Ken Darcovich
GOAT Champion


Joined: 14 Jun 1999
Posts: 2613
Location: Ottawa

PostPosted: Mon Oct 27, 2008 10:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

In my experience, sometimes when someone on my card has a disaster blow up, this is when I most frequently hear a score wrongly reported. For whatever reason, most of the time I'm able to remember all the throws by everyone on my card, and when someone scores an 8 consisting of jail and OB and a 3ft shot blocked by a branch topped off with a 3-putt, that's when I'll hear a 7 or 6 reported and I have to walk them through the prickly re-hash of the whole sorry episode...

Another scenario to watch for is the putting explosion, the 4-putt or 5-putt hole. Stroke saving reporting is liable to happen here as well.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Thumber
LNF Champion


Joined: 08 Nov 2007
Posts: 8273

PostPosted: Mon Oct 27, 2008 10:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I had exactly the opposite problem on my second round. I'm sure I threw a 58 but that dirty Svetkoff marked me for an 82 lol
_________________
meh
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Steve Rydell
Big-Arm


Joined: 12 Nov 2003
Posts: 774
Location: Here

PostPosted: Mon Oct 27, 2008 10:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Liar!

You knew the deal. I would write 58 and you would pay me $100. No money, no changing of score.

I once had a round where there was me, a pretty good player , a couple of 12 year old twins and sore loser who was playing badly. Early on in the round I caught one of the twins misreporting and the other twin miswriting their scores. The sore loser would also consistently forget any bad throws and would misreport his score. I quickly got my hand on the card and the good player and I had to track every shot of the other players on the card. We stopped even asking them what they got. It was so bad the other player discussed the round on the PDGA forum.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
burjwahzeh
Overflow Overlord


Joined: 13 Dec 2005
Posts: 4460
Location: Somewhere where my mind is not.

PostPosted: Mon Oct 27, 2008 11:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Steve Rydell wrote:
... It was so bad the other player discussed the round on the PDGA forum.

Is it worth reading? Can you point it out to me?

Did you realize that you could penalize them for it?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Thumber
LNF Champion


Joined: 08 Nov 2007
Posts: 8273

PostPosted: Mon Oct 27, 2008 11:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

burjwahzeh wrote:
Did you realize that you could penalize them for it?


Could you elaborate on this please? Penalize them for discussing a round after it is over?
_________________
meh
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
burjwahzeh
Overflow Overlord


Joined: 13 Dec 2005
Posts: 4460
Location: Somewhere where my mind is not.

PostPosted: Mon Oct 27, 2008 11:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thumber wrote:
Could you elaborate on this please? Penalize them for discussing a round after it is over?

You can penalize them for reporting a dishonest score, provided you do it as they report the score to the scorekeeper, and provided you first issue a courtesy violation warning, all under 801.01.

Submitting a dishonest score is the most base and deceitful action a player could make. It is an affront to the very integrity of the game. Someone might have an absent-minded moment during a round, and the rules even allow for that. The second time it happens, though, the rules provide that it costs a stroke, and that stroke should be issued without remorse of forgiveness.

Don't expect to be forgiven, just because you forget.

Remembering your score should be as basic a thing as remembering not to urinate in your pants when you have to go.


Last edited by burjwahzeh on Mon Oct 27, 2008 12:34 pm; edited 1 time in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Rolly
King of Commentary


Joined: 11 Oct 2005
Posts: 9820
Location: South East Division

PostPosted: Thu Nov 27, 2008 11:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think they should bring back the you have to initial your score rule.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    ODGC Forums Forum Index -> Disc Golf Rules & Course Safety All times are GMT - 5 Hours
Page 1 of 1

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum


Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group
RSS Feed for Latest Posts