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Rolly
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Joined: 11 Oct 2005
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 30, 2007 5:39 pm    Post subject: Next shot?? Reply with quote

I got another....
Your at White Spruce park, Hole 17.
Your drive clearly lands in the nasty looking untransparent water about 250ft up thats on the left. Whole group see's it land in the water, a 9.5 on the splash from the judges. You go up to the water, and cant see it, and its deemed lost. where is your next shot?
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Roxie
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 31, 2007 9:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

If this was your tee shot you take it back at the tee with a penalty and you count the one that you lost in the water. Otherwise you take it to an agreed upon spot. Either way it is basically a 2 stroke penalty.
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Ken Darcovich
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Joined: 14 Jun 1999
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 31, 2007 10:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

This is the same topic that's been brought up before.

The rules have a defect where they don't make a distinction between a disc that's lost and and a disc that is unretrievable. As Rolly says, the splash was obvious, so everyone knows where it is, under water. It shouldn't be played as lost. We've all seen discs in the shingles on top of the chair lift motor hut (No. 16 at CF), they're unretrievable, certainly not lost, and players (unfortunately) take their next lie behind the structure.
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Rolly
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 31, 2007 10:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Roxy, its not the same penaly, back at the tee, you get penalized the distance,
Ken, a disc in the shingles is not lost because you see it, in the lake you dont see it, its lost.

I actually forgot the rule, cant believe my game has deteriate to the grade of my typing.
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Roxie
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 31, 2007 10:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

803.11

B. A player whose disc is declared lost shall receive one penalty throw. If the throw was made from the tee, the player will re-tee for the next shot. If not made from the tee, the group will determine the approximate lie from which the throw was made, and the player will throw again from that lie. In all cases the original throw plus one penalty throw shall be counted in the player’s score


I have to agree with Rolly, even though you know it's in the pond, if it's not in your hand or spotted after 3 mins it is lost. It's like throwing it in to a tree and can't spot it. You know its in that tree, but you can't find it, it's lost.
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burjwahzeh
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Joined: 13 Dec 2005
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 31, 2007 11:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

There is a distinction that needs to be noted:

Quote:
803.09 (A). A disc shall be considered out-of-bounds only when it comes to rest and it is clearly and completely surrounded by the out-of-bounds area. A disc thrown in water shall be deemed to be at rest once it is floating or is moving only by the action of the water or the wind on the water. See section 803.03 F. The out-of-bounds line itself is considered out-of-bounds. In order to consider the disc as out-of-bounds, there must be reasonable evidence that the disc came to rest within the out-of-bounds area. In the absence of such evidence, the disc will be considered lost and the player will proceed according to rule 803.11B.


There was a splash, the water is considered OB, and the disc is reasonably considered OB by this rule.

Now, apply this rule:
Quote:
803.09 (B). A player whose disc is considered out-of-bounds shall receive one penalty throw. The player may elect to play the next shot from:
(1) The previous lie as evidenced by the marker disc or, if the marker disc has been moved from an approximate lie, as agreed to by the majority of the group or an official; or
(2) A lie that is up to one meter away from and perpendicular to the point where the disc last crossed into out-of-bounds, as determined by a majority of the group or an official. This holds true even if the direction takes the lie closer to the hole; or
(3) Within the designated Drop Zone, if provided. These options may be limited by the tournament director as a special condition (see 804.01).

It is important to note here that because the disc is OB, you don't need the disc, and you don't need to determine exactly where it landed for the majority of the group to determine where the disc went OB.

I want to throw some caution about the "disc in water is a lost disc" mentality. A disc is lost when you don't know where it is. Here is the definition:

Quote:
803.11(A). A disc shall be declared lost if the player cannot locate it within three minutes after arriving at the spot where it was last seen by the group or an official. ...

There is an important distinction here, and it isn't based on a philosophical arguement of "if you don't have the disc, and if you can't see it or point to it, the disc is lost." What is important about this difference is apparent because of this rule:

Quote:
803.03(A). After each throw, the thrown disc must be left where it came to rest until the lie is established by the placing of a marker. This can be done by placing a mini marker disc on the playing surface between the hole and the disc, directly in line with the hole, on the line of play, touching the thrown disc. A player may instead choose, without touching or repositioning the thrown disc, to use the thrown disc as the marker. The marker may not be moved until the throw is released. A marker inadvertently moved prior to the throw shall be returned to its correct location.

Now, in the case of OB, you just need to know where it went OB to establish the lie. End of story. The lost disc rule exists because if you can't find the disc, and it isn't OB, you can't establish the lie without the rule.

Remember: The rules are meant to be fair, and they need to be read that way.


Last edited by burjwahzeh on Wed Jan 31, 2007 12:04 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Rolly
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 31, 2007 12:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Roxie wrote:
803.11

B. A player whose disc is declared lost shall receive one penalty throw. If the throw was made from the tee, the player will re-tee for the next shot. If not made from the tee, the group will determine the approximate lie from which the throw was made, and the player will throw again from that lie. In all cases the original throw plus one penalty throw shall be counted in the player’s score


I have to agree with Rolly, even though you know it's in the pond, if it's not in your hand or spotted after 3 mins it is lost. It's like throwing it in to a tree and can't spot it. You know its in that tree, but you can't find it, it's lost.


I agree with the penalty etc, but the difference is that your 250 ft in the hole, and shooting 3, as opposed to being 70ft out and shooting 3. Thats the difference,
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Rolly
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 31, 2007 12:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

so a lost disc is only Lost if its In bounds.
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burjwahzeh
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 31, 2007 12:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rolly wrote:
I agree with the penalty etc, but the difference is that your 250 ft in the hole, and shooting 3, as opposed to being 70ft out and shooting 3. Thats the difference,


Absolutely. This is why the OB rule gives you choice.
Consider this:
OB is an intentional and presumably designed hazard. You intentionally risk going OB in order to make that great shot. If you don't make the great shot, you take a penalty stroke, and are penalized the distance that separate your landing spot and the spot that the shot went OB. If the lie is a complete disaster, you can re-tee, and the penalty ends up being stroke and all that distance. It's your choice, use it to your advantage. Lucky you, you have a choice.

Mark your lie (or re-tee) and get on with the game.

Now, a lost disc is an entirely different story.

the real ultimate power (Rant Alert! Shocked Be Warned! Wink )

A lost disc occurs because you weren't able to keep track of your disc when you should have been able to. You didn't go OB. You went somewhere and you were out of control. If that isn't the case, then you weren't paying enough attention to your own shot. Wake up! Play your game! Stop staring at the daisies and pay attention!
Why is a lost disc a bigger burden?
Now you have to inconvenience the entire group of players, press them into service to help you compensate for your lack of control or attentiveness, and otherwise disrupt the flow of the game. That sucks, not so much for you, but for everyone else that could otherwise simply be enjoying the round. You deserve the more harsh penalty for imposing this sort of communist ideal. Go back to where you were, and do it all over again. You deserve to make the walk of shame, and the stroke that goes along with it.


Last edited by burjwahzeh on Wed Jan 31, 2007 12:47 pm; edited 2 times in total
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burjwahzeh
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 31, 2007 12:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rolly wrote:
so a lost disc is only Lost if its In bounds.


That is how you can read it, though there is the case where the disc likely went OB over a hill. Now you need to find the disc in order to best determine where it went OB. A special case indeed, but you can understand the implications of the rules if you apply them in the order in which they apply. Generally speaking, it's all about determining the lie of the next shot. You can go right back to the start of the rule book to get a better understanding of that order:

Quote:
803.01(A). Description of the Game. The game of disc golf consists of throwing a flying disc from the teeing area to a target by a throw or successive throws. Players shall play the course as they find it and play the disc where it lies unless allowed otherwise by the Rules. The competitor who plays the stipulated round or rounds in the fewest throws plus penalty throws is the winner.


The rules then provide the details.
I'm stating the obvious here, but it's easy to lose yourself in the rules if you don't consider the basics of the game as set out above. Algorythmically, they are:
1) Tee Off
2) If the disc is in the basket, you're done the hole. If it is not in the basket, you:
3) Play your disc where it lands or otherwise determine your lie and mark it
4) Throw
5) Return to 2 above.

Everything is then applied in fairness, and there is a rule for that too: eek
Quote:
803.01(F). Rule of Fairness. If any point in dispute is not covered by the rules, the decision shall be made in accordance with fairness. Often a logical extension of the closest existing rule or the principles embodied in these rules will provide guidance for determining fairness.. [sic]
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Rolly
King of Commentary


Joined: 11 Oct 2005
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 31, 2007 4:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

burjwahzeh wrote:


Remember: The rules are meant to be fair, and they need to be read that way.


Ok here is another. this actually happened.

hole 8 (long one w ball field in it) at WSP again.

ODGC member drives, and we are all preatty sure that it went OB. We go to look for the disc, and cannot find it in the OB area.(There is no trickyness in the OB area, its a road, and short grass no thick trees etc.) We look in the InBound areas also. Is this a lost disc, or is it supposed to be taken at the ob line?



What actually happened is we found the disc IB after someone else shot. Should it have been a lost disc?
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Arthur
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Joined: 25 Aug 2003
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Location: Arnprior, Ontario

PostPosted: Wed Jan 31, 2007 7:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

burjwahzeh wrote:


Quote:
803.09 (A). A disc shall be considered out-of-bounds only when it comes to rest and it is clearly and completely surrounded by the out-of-bounds area. A disc thrown in water shall be deemed to be at rest once it is floating or is moving only by the action of the water or the wind on the water. See section 803.03 F. The out-of-bounds line itself is considered out-of-bounds. In order to consider the disc as out-of-bounds, there must be reasonable evidence that the disc came to rest within the out-of-bounds area. In the absence of such evidence, the disc will be considered lost and the player will proceed according to rule 803.11B.




I think that the fact that you all think it was OB is not considered evidence, and unlike the splash of a disc in OB water, this one was not seen going OB so has to be considered lost under the rules.
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