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burjwahzeh
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 05, 2006 9:05 am    Post subject: Formula For Getting Rid of Sand Baggers Reply with quote

Since I've lost all respect for sand baggers (and I'll go on record as saying that not one person in the ODGC can be said to be a tournament sandbagger; the problem lies elsewhere), I've got the following formula that should work in eliminating the sandbagger issue:

If advanced and intermediate play from the same teepads:
1) Any intermediate player that finishes in a cashout position will have their score compared to the advanced pool cashout position.
2) If the intermediate player earns more than they would have in advanced, their winnings are automatically rolled-back to represent what their advanced winnings would be, AND the difference is payed-out by spreading it amoung the intermediate players that wouldn't have placed in advanced, or by adding an extra payout position in the intermediate pool.

If advanced and intermediate play from different teepads:
The TD is likely going to need a laptop PC for this, but:
Do the same as above, but use player ratings to calculate average tournament round ratings, and use these as the basis for comparison between intermediate and advanced. It's a little more work, but has the same effect.

With this, there is no reason to sandbag. It becomes nearly impossible to "cheat" the system.
I would love to see the face of a sandbagger when told "finishing first place: S Bagger, whose score of 148 would have seen him finish in 5th place in the advanced field. S Bagger wins the Advanced 5th place equivalent of half of the intermediate first place earnings for his efforts, and we've now added an extra payout spot to the intermediate pool."
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Stefan
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 05, 2006 9:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sandbagging is a complex issue.

One reason is that one of the typical differences between lower and higher divisions is that the players playing at lower divisions are much less consistent. What do you do with a guy which has the distance and can even putt/approach when he is on, but has poor mental game and typically shits the bed one or several rounds of the tournament? If he is on top of his game, he can be very competitive at the top of AM1, but with his typical game his is right in the middle of the smack of AM2.

Of course, from time to time (maybe once a year) it happens that all his rounds are good and he wins AM2 by huge margin. Do you move him up to AM1 and let him rot there as perennial bottom feeder?

The think is you don't want to punish somebody who had the tournament of his life (or at least year).

The true sandbaggers are those who come to the tournament expecting to win in their chosen division, and with a reasonable chance of caching in the higher division. I don't think there is a simple mathematical formula to weed them out, but typically their peer players (and TDs) know who they are.
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Steve Rydell
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 05, 2006 11:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't think you need to do any formulas or calculations. All you need to do is change how payouts are done between divisions.

Am3 division winner gets a disc and trophy. Maybe second and third get a disc too depending on the size of the division.
All players get a players pack of a DX or equivalent disc.
Any extra money put into Am1 and Pro purses.

Am2 Winner gets a disc maybe 2 and trophy. Top 3rd maybe get a disc.
All players get a players pack of a top quality plastic disc.
Any extra money put into Am1 or Pro Purses

Am1 Field is prize money is distributed to top half (or more) as you like and all others who do not cash get a players pack. Top three get trophies.

Pros do whatever they want as they are usually just playing for each other's money.

I believe this will eliminate typical sandbagging as winning in AM2 will not get you that much so it'll be worth it for them to move up. Those who know their game is questionable will stay in AM2 and may win a little something for their troubles.

What I think what will happen if you do this is the Am2 field will shrink down as locals who can pull of a good round will go into the Am1 division and take a crack at winning something.
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Stefan
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 05, 2006 11:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nice idea Ben, and I totally agree. This also allows lower AM3/AM2 entry fees, if one feels like attracting more beginner players.
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BigBrotherPenton
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 05, 2006 11:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I too agree with Svets and ET.
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Arthur
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 05, 2006 12:31 pm    Post subject: Nice Reply with quote

Hmmmmm..... excellent ideas Ben

Sounds like maybe the CC is a good place to try implementing this and see what happens. I think it's a brilliant idea and well worth trying at Camp Fortune this year.


Last edited by Arthur on Mon Jun 05, 2006 12:32 pm; edited 1 time in total
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burjwahzeh
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 05, 2006 1:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Your proposal looks like it will work, Ben.

I think it should be standard practice.
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BigBrotherPenton
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 05, 2006 1:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I read over Ben's thingy again.

$$ from the Am2 and Am3 division should go only to the Am2 and Am3 division. The TD should figure out how much they think it'll cost to have these divisions (lunch + players pack + trophy + top 2 or 3 prizes + ctps) and work to not have extra money. The good thing about a 2 day tournament is by the second day you can see if you have extra $$ and use it to buy CTPs for that division. I don't like the idea of one division paying for another division.
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Steve Rydell
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 05, 2006 1:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

With my plan I wouldn't be expecting much money (if any at all)going to the upper divisions. If a little extra money went in you could pay out more people attracting more of the median players into the Am1 pool. Actually I'd probably change it so that any spare money went to the women's divisions. Try to pay out more of their field if not all of it. I'm not a huge fan of CTP's and such. All they do is keep big arm guys in the lower divisions so they can win more stuff.
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Stefan
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 05, 2006 1:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You can keep redistribution to minimum by simply having lower entry fees in AM2/Am3, and by giving them a nice player's pack (Ben's suggestion is excellent).

CTPs are nice, if not overdone (grrr, I had terrible round, but at least I won a CTP as a consolation...), especially for lower divisions and on easier holes. I feel that CTPs for Open are unnecessary.

Actually, there are several nice CTP-able holes at Camp Fortune for AM1 as well - #5 (from the shorter teepads, not from the top), #10, #11 (beauty), #17.

At the end its TD's decision. I trust Arthur will make a good one.
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Steve Rydell
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 05, 2006 1:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Something else I'd like to change is the idea behind the divisions:

Pro: I'm consistenly good and I have enough plastic. I'm looking to play against the best.

Am1: I'm pretty good and/or I want to fight to win something.

Am2:I'm playing because I enjoy the game and really don't care if I win anything. I'm just looking for a good game of golf with people of comparable skill level. (I think this division would then shrink to maybe 2-3 people but would sure make for an enjoyable round).

Am3: This is my first couple tournaments and I'm learning the game.

People would then decide if they want to fight for prizes (Am1) or basically play in a rec division Am2.
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BigBrotherPenton
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 05, 2006 1:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If a TD is on the ball they can pick holes that can be reached by all and the difference would be in inches.

CTPs, longest putt, best score on holes...there's a couple of circus sideshows you could do. Giving to the women's is good too, or even Jrs.

I just don't like the funding of the upper tiers from the lower ones.

Individual:
Lunch over 2 days (sandwich, drink, fruit) ~ $10
Disc ~ $12 - $20
Other costs ~ $5 - $8 (printing of score cards, maps and agenda, permits, signs, paint, other miscelanous costs)
PDGA costs - $3(+$5 if non-member) + sanctioning fee/insurance

It cost just above $33/player last year to play the CC at JCP. That was with a +$350 permit. And we only charged the ladies $25, so added $$ had to be added to the ladies. I don't think we need to do this anymore. They would appreciate the equality I'm sure.

Other costs:
Group:
Trophy ~ $20-$30
Prizes ~ $40

Charging about $35 a ODGC member and $40 for a non-ODGC member. $5 to the club. You should come out about even.
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BigBrotherPenton
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 05, 2006 2:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Steve Rydell wrote:
Something else I'd like to change is the idea behind the divisions:

Pro: I'm consistenly good and I have enough plastic. I'm looking to play against the best.

Am1: I'm pretty good and/or I want to fight to win something.

Am2:I'm playing because I enjoy the game and really don't care if I win anything. I'm just looking for a good game of golf with people of comparable skill level. (I think this division would then shrink to maybe 2-3 people but would sure make for an enjoyable round).

Am3: This is my first couple tournaments and I'm learning the game.

People would then decide if they want to fight for prizes (Am1) or basically play in a rec division Am2.


This would work for us in Ottawa. It would be very hard to change the US players mindset, which just means I support it more.
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Hogger 2.0
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 20, 2006 11:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Reading this got me thinking...

Ben and I had this discussion about Bowling Green. We figured that if there wasn't such a large payout more people would move up. Many of the top finishers in Intermediate had 900-913 ratings. They were not REQUIRED to move up because they were still below the 915 mark.

4th placed walked with 7 discs. 8th place walked with 5. 12th place walked with 2 or 3.
I am pretty sure that 1st got a bag and a pile of discs. 2nd probably did too.

I like the general idea of a smaller payout. At the same time, however, I have to wonder if it is appropriate for someone who beats 125-130 people to win a small prize pack.

But this probably won't apply to the CC or other events in Ontario because they won't have 550 players.
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