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Stefan
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Joined: 14 Jun 2003
Posts: 1307
Location: Ottawa

PostPosted: Wed May 10, 2006 10:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Paul Bourgeois wrote:

The new handicaps have been calculated as follows (regrets about the formatting, I'll work on improving this in the future):
Family Name Given Name Handicap # on Record
Dobrev Stefan 3 3
Meldrum Jeff 7 5
Schnobb Gavin 23 5
...
Cheers!
-Paul

Hey Paul,
care to disclose how you calculated the handicaps?

In particular, what are the rounds you are basing it on, e.g. what is my best score upon which you base the handicap of 3?

Whoaa, looking forward to beating SchnobGobbler by 20 strokes (or Meldrum by 4)
eek
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Paul Bourgeois
ODGC Tuesday Night Coordinator


Joined: 21 Aug 2005
Posts: 1687
Location: Ottawa, Ontario

PostPosted: Wed May 10, 2006 10:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Stefan wrote:

Hey Paul,
care to disclose how you calculated the handicaps?

In particular, what are the rounds you are basing it on, e.g. what is my best score upon which you base the handicap of 3?

Whoaa, looking forward to beating SchnobGobbler by 20 strokes (or Meldrum by 4)
eek


See any of the above threads on this forum, Stefan.
You played 2 singles rounds at league night over the past two years, both on yellows.
You scored a 45 last night, and this is not your lowest round DIFFERENTIAL.
Having only three differentials, the lowest determines your handicap, which one of last year's rounds.
Meldrum has 5 rounds in, so his handicap is the average of his best 2 differentials: Last night's 45 and one of his yellow performances of the past two years.
Gavin is a developing player, and has some big rounds in his record. His average is based on his round last night (the best he's recorded), and the best of his other blue rounds.

Like I mentioned above, I'm going to make an adjustment to the Course Handicap for the old JCP Yellows.
Currently, the Blue layout we played last night is rated 37.5, so your differential last night was 6.5. The old blues were rated 39.2, and the old yellows are 46.6. (7.4 strokes difference, based on a a previous yellow pad singles league night, and looking at average blue player scores on the yellow pads) (Stefan, if you look through the records, you'll see how, based on this score, you get a handicap of three). As I mentioned earlier, adjusting last year's course rating to be more difficult in comparison to the new layout has made the blue to yellow delta too large by keeping the 7.4 stroke difference, and unfair to those that played yellow most of the time. It is the yellow score that I will be lowering, likely by about 2 strokes, to make that scratch round on the old yellows between -10 and -11.

FYI... amoung those players from last evening that played blues through any of the last two seasons, the average score was about 3 strokes lower last night. I've made the new layout 1.7 strokes easier than the old one, basing the difference between this and the average on (some very obvious) player improvement amoung this group of people. Moving forward, because all players will be playing the same courses on the same nights, the yellow vs blue player deltas will disappear. Also, as you add more rounds to your record, the extremes become smoothed out. You'll be rated very low for another two rounds, Stefan, then your next lowest score gets averaged-in.


Last edited by Paul Bourgeois on Wed May 10, 2006 10:46 am; edited 1 time in total
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Stefan
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Joined: 14 Jun 2003
Posts: 1307
Location: Ottawa

PostPosted: Wed May 10, 2006 11:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

[quote="Paul Bourgeois"]
Stefan wrote:

See any of the above threads on this forum, Stefan.
You played 2 singles rounds at league night over the past two years, both on yellows.
You scored a 45 last night, and this is not your lowest round DIFFERENTIAL.
Having only three differentials, the lowest determines your handicap, which one of last year's rounds.

(Stefan, if you look through the records, you'll see how, based on this score, you get a handicap of three).

Thanks. I am just not too familiar enough with the web page to easily find the records (I do not remember which of the league nights were singles, for example, and going through all those threads is a bit tedious) and hoped you have them handy.

Handicap of 3 essentially means that I shot 970 rated round from yellows, which seemed rather unlikedly. But if you say that old yellows are rated 46.4, that means that 7 down would be cca 1000 rated round and I might have shot 4 down from yellows.

I just wish you had also used the rounds from CC and Plaid Jacket for initialization, the sample would have been much larger and more precise.

Does not matter too much, it is just a bit frustrating knowing that even if I shoot my best golf ever, I stand no chance...
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Paul Bourgeois
ODGC Tuesday Night Coordinator


Joined: 21 Aug 2005
Posts: 1687
Location: Ottawa, Ontario

PostPosted: Wed May 10, 2006 12:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Stefan wrote:
...Handicap of 3 essentially means that I shot 970 rated round from yellows, which seemed rather unlikedly. But if you say that old yellows are rated 46.4, that means that 7 down would be cca 1000 rated round and I might have shot 4 down from yellows.

I just wish you had also used the rounds from CC and Plaid Jacket for initialization, the sample would have been much larger and more precise.

Does not matter too much, it is just a bit frustrating knowing that even if I shoot my best golf ever, I stand no chance...


Stefan, you shot a 50 from yellows. CC and Plaid rounds were played on a different course: there were modifications to the layout and extra holes added that would have made a comparison to the "regular" yellows very tedious, and this is why these other rounds were not included.

As mentioned, the old yellow rating will be lowered before Tuesday, and handicaps recalculated. Old blue and yellow "scratch round handicaps" were both increased by the same amount as a result of the new layout, and the yellow scratch round is now too high to make regular yellow pad players competitive, so it will be dropped. Your handicap will increase relative to other "intermediate" level players, but will stay the same relative to other "advanced" level players. This will happen before next week's round.

As for "best golf ever", your handicap is based on your "best round ever" right now, because it is based only on your best round on record: a 50 from yellows. Have a look at the handicaps when they are posted early next week, and ask yourself, "when is the last time that I didn't beat Paul by 9 strokes?"

Remember also, with handicap play, you likely need to play your "best round ever" in order to win. If you get the chance, ask Dawn how she felt about her round last night. I'll bet she was pretty happy with her score. You should know that the record shows that from the blues, it was "her best round ever." Cool
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Stefan
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PostPosted: Wed May 10, 2006 12:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Paul Bourgeois wrote:
[
Stefan, you shot a 50 from yellows. CC and Plaid rounds were played on a different course: there were modifications to the layout and extra holes added that would have made a comparison to the "regular" yellows very tedious, and this is why these other rounds were not included.

Yes, but the current rounds are also played on very different course. To compare, it is necessary to establish the course rating for the course played at CC/Plaid. Being a rather handsome tournaments, you should get even better results then from league nights. Whatever, I am glad that you are doing what you are doing, don't want to push even more work on you.

Quote:

As for "best golf ever", your handicap is based on your "best round ever" right now, because it is based only on your best round on record: a 50 from yellows. Have a look at the handicaps when they are posted early next week, and ask yourself, "when is the last time that I didn't beat Paul by 9 strokes?"

Remember also, with handicap play, you likely need to play your "best round ever" in order to win. If you get the chance, ask Dawn how she felt about her round last night. I'll bet she was pretty happy with her score. You should know that the record shows that from the blues, it was "her best round ever." Cool

Not to take anything from Dawn, but my PB from old blues was -9, which I shot yesterday. So I can also say that I was close to my 'best round ever'. With a handicap of 3, I would have got 42. In other words, I would have to shoot 8 strokes better then my best round ever to match her. Do you find it plausible?

Do you feel like you shot your 'best round ever' yesterday? Yet you got the combined score of 42.

Whatever, by the end of the season the handicaps will be reasonable.

I have one related question, though: Shouldn't the difficulty of the course figure in the computation of the total score? (In the same way as 1 stroke on a course with average 39 is much more points then 1 stroke with an average of 60.)
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BigBrotherPenton
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Joined: 24 Jun 2002
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PostPosted: Wed May 10, 2006 12:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Let's be serious here. The new layout is WAY easier than the old one. Possibly 4-6 strokes easier. (#1 is way easier, so is 2. 3 is long but little trouble, 4 is much easier, as is #14, 15 and 17. Really there's a big chance for 4 on #18 and #3, and that's it.) There is no more trouble out there. So, ET your best score on blues - from last night - is far from the best score you've ever shot. I was with Dawn last night and her drives where bang on, and her putting was the best I've ever seen her putt. In the new 9 South, you are pretty much putting after every drive.
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Stefan
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PostPosted: Wed May 10, 2006 1:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Oh, I totally agree that the new layout is much easier, so my -9 does not compare to -9 on the old blues (but the same can be said about Dawn's +1).

Still I would need to shoot -17 to match her 34 with the handicap. That would be WAYY better golf then I ever played.

I think the handicap system as it is now does not work very well if you play it on courses of different difficulty: If my handicap is 10 less then yours, I have distinct advantage on a tough course, and distinct disadvantage on an easy course (I might shoot 10 strokes better then you on a course rated 50, but maybe 15 strokes better on a course rated 62, and only 6 strokes better on course rated 39).

The new JCP being an easy course, there are simply not enough difficult holes for me to gain 20 strokes on Gobbler, even if he plays very mediocre by his own standards.

Whatever, I enjoy playing golf with you guys & ladies, its just looks to me as misused math (and, by professional deformation, I have huge problems letting it go...)
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BigBrotherPenton
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PostPosted: Wed May 10, 2006 2:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Stefan wrote:

The new JCP being an easy course, there are simply not enough difficult holes for me to gain 20 strokes on Gobbler, even if he plays very mediocre by his own standards.



Totally agree. I don't really understand it either. Someone will just tell me when I win I hope.

I imagine playing at CF will make things different.
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Paul Bourgeois
ODGC Tuesday Night Coordinator


Joined: 21 Aug 2005
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Location: Ottawa, Ontario

PostPosted: Wed May 10, 2006 2:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Stefan wrote:
...If my handicap is 10 less then yours, I have distinct advantage on a tough course, and distinct disadvantage on an easy course (I might shoot 10 strokes better then you on a course rated 50, but maybe 15 strokes better on a course rated 62, and only 6 strokes better on course rated 39).

The new JCP being an easy course, there are simply not enough difficult holes for me to gain 20 strokes on Gobbler, even if he plays very mediocre by his own standards.

Whatever, I enjoy playing golf with you guys & ladies, its just looks to me as misused math (and, by professional deformation, I have huge problems letting it go...)


You're beginning to realize why the USGA adopted "Slope" values for their handicaps, something that we will not get into this season. At any rate, you are correct about certain aspects, namely that the shorter courses and longer courses will present different challenges to players of different skills.
You've voiced your concerns with the system, but why don't you give it a couple of weeks to work itself out?
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BigBrotherPenton
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PostPosted: Wed May 10, 2006 3:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Regardless of the math and the differing opinions, this format is better than others I've played. At least it's my game that matters. I'm competing and I have a chance. It allows everyone to play together in one group and we get a good winner, instead of a lucky draw. I had fun, and I will continue to have fun on Tuesdays. There will be things to work out for sure, and they'll get worked out. Let's possibly stop the negative comments and if you have questions or concerns take it to the PMs.
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Chuck Shick
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Joined: 05 Sep 2000
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PostPosted: Wed May 10, 2006 4:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I had a great time on Tuesday.

Paul has put huge energy into making this work for all of us.

Let's just play golf and let the rest happen.
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BigBrotherPenton
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PostPosted: Wed May 10, 2006 4:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

HUGE energy!
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peachgrinder
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Joined: 10 Jul 2004
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PostPosted: Wed May 10, 2006 5:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I am so looking forward to next Tuesday.

Es bueno.

PEACH
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Stefan
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PostPosted: Wed May 10, 2006 5:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I had a great time too... and I know Paul put a lot if energy into making it happen.

I am just a bit frustrated knowing that it coulda-woulda be done better - professional number cruncher deformation speaking for myself - shut up - OK - I am done with it, looking forward to the next Tuesday.

Just maybe if you are going to do something like this in the future, it would be good to consult beforehand and straighten the wrinkles.... I have ideas... OK, now I am really done.
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BigBrotherPenton
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PostPosted: Thu May 11, 2006 3:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Then run something yourself. It always seems that it's the people who don't run the events that have the most to complain about. You run something, then let us tell you how crappy a job you did. There's a difference between constructive critism and being rude and unappreciative.

By the way, saying something positive, then finishing with negative, leaves the reader with negative.
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Stefan
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Location: Ottawa

PostPosted: Thu May 11, 2006 4:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

BigBrotherPenton wrote:
Then run something yourself. It always seems that it's the people who don't run the events that have the most to complain about. You run something, then let us tell you how crappy a job you did. There's a difference between constructive critism and being rude and unappreciative.

By the way, saying something positive, then finishing with negative, leaves the reader with negative.

I am not the right person to run something - I am away way too often. And I don't like being in Don's position (when almost nobody shows up for the series he was running this spring). I am not charizmatic enough to avoid that. big grin

I will prepare a solid proposal how to do number crunching for the next time we want to run handicaps league.
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