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colin
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 17, 2004 9:32 am    Post subject: Holding on to a tree while throwing ... Reply with quote

If you're in the woods and you have an akward shot, what's the rule on holding onto a tree with one arm while throwing?
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Shaggy
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 17, 2004 7:47 pm    Post subject: Holding on to a tree while throwing ... Reply with quote

I believe that is a no-no.
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BigBrotherPenton
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 19, 2004 8:44 am    Post subject: Holding on to a tree while throwing ... Reply with quote

Are you holding back a branch? Is the tree in front of the lie? Then no. If the tree is behind your disc then that's fine. But you cannot hold back a branch any time.

803.03 STANCE, Subsequent to Teeing Off
A. When the disc is released, a player must:
(1) Have at least one supporting point that is in contact with the playing surface on the line of play and within 30 centimeters directly behind the marker disc (except as specified in 803.03 E); and,
(2) have no supporting point contact with the marker disc or any object closer to the hole than the rear edge of the marker disc; and,
(3) have all of his or her supporting points in-bounds.


D. A player must choose the stance that will result in the least movement of any part of any obstacle that is a permanent or integral part of the course.

803.04 OBSTACLES & RELIEF
A. Obstacles to a Stance or Throwing Motion: Players must choose a stance which results in the least movement of any part of any obstacle except as allowed for casual obstacles by 803.04 C. No relief is granted from park equipment (such as signs, trash cans, picnic tables, etc.) as they are considered part of the course. Once a legal stance is taken, a player may not move an obstacle (or hold it back or bend it) in order to make room for a throwing motion. It is legal for a player's throwing motion to make incidental movement of an obstacle.

B. Obstacles Between the Lie and Hole: A player may not move, alter, bend, break, or hold back any part of any obstacle between the lie and the hole, with one exception. A player may move obstacles between the lie and the hole that became a factor during the round, such as spectators, players' equipment, open gates, or branches that fell during the round. Where it is not known if an obstacle has become a factor during a round, it shall not be moved. It is legal for a player's throwing motion to make incidental movement of an obstacle.


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redline
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 19, 2004 8:45 am    Post subject: Holding on to a tree while throwing ... Reply with quote

Edit: BBP beat me to it

[This message has been edited by redline (edited July 19, 2004).]

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colin
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 19, 2004 9:36 am    Post subject: Holding on to a tree while throwing ... Reply with quote

thanks guys, I should have been a little more clear with my question though. what I meant was, the tree is behind you while you're throwing towards the basket and you're holding onto the tree to keep you from falling forward over your marker disc.

So, from reading 803.03 (2), as long as you're not touching things in front of your marker, you're fine. is that how you guys see it?

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redline
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 19, 2004 10:56 am    Post subject: Holding on to a tree while throwing ... Reply with quote

The rules make reference only to moving obstacles / objects, and objects in front of the marker disc. If holding the tree (behind the marker disc) means that you aren't moving it, I can't see how you would be breaking any rules. I also can't see how you could make a good shot holding onto a tree. Your best bet would be to change your stance. Did all of this arise out of a shot on hole 17 by chance?
Tree Hugger!

Cheers!

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BigBrotherPenton
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 19, 2004 1:11 pm    Post subject: Holding on to a tree while throwing ... Reply with quote

Are you within 10m of the pin?

C. Any throw from within 10 meters or less, as measured from the rear of the marker disc to the base of the hole, is considered a putt. A follow-through after a putt that causes the thrower to make any supporting point contact closer to the hole than the rear edge of the mini marker disc constitutes a falling putt and is not allowed. The player must demonstrate full control of balance before advancing toward the hole.


"Full control of balance before advancing toward the hole."

Control wouldn't be holding on to a tree.

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colin
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 19, 2004 1:22 pm    Post subject: Holding on to a tree while throwing ... Reply with quote

quote:
Did all of this arise out of a shot on hole 17 by chance?

the pines on the hill beside basket #7.

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colin
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 19, 2004 1:25 pm    Post subject: Holding on to a tree while throwing ... Reply with quote

quote:

"Full control of balance before advancing toward the hole."

Control wouldn't be holding on to a tree.


But if you were holding on to the tree, you wouldn't be "advancing toward the hole", so you would need to show "full control of balance". no?

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Big Joe Mufferaw
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 19, 2004 1:30 pm    Post subject: Holding on to a tree while throwing ... Reply with quote

A similar question is handled in the PDGA Q & A section:

Rule Question: Maintaining balance while putting

quote:
"I have a good rules question for you involving the stance rules. A player uses an object (in this case a branch) behind him to maintain balance for a putt. First, would this be considered "full control of balance"? Second, could you argue, if the branch is not so large that the players body weight will not move it, that it is a violation of 803.03 D and or 803.04 A because they could have moved the branch less by not hanging on it? Thanks for any input."

The above question was submitted to the PDGA. This issue has been discussed by the PDGA Rules Committee. Below are our comments.

The question can be boiled down to: Can a player hold on to an object behind his lie to maintain balance while throwing/putting?

Applicable rules:


803.03 (Stance)
803.04 (Obstacles and Relief)
804.05 (Disqualification and Suspension)

Discussion:
The rules do not require that you maintain your balance while putting. You can have a grand mal seizure as long as you don't step ahead of your lie. At the time you decide to step ahead of your lie is when you have to demonstrate balance. This is simply to prove that you are not committing a falling putt, such that you would not be able to stop yourself from falling forward due to the motion of your putt. Grabbing a branch is merely acquiring another support point, which is perfectly legal, as long as it is not ahead of your lie.

Holding on to something BEHIND your lie is not prohibited by the rules, provided that the tree that the golfer is using as a supporting point is in-bounds (803.03.A (3)).

The branch must not be moved, or else the player would be in violation of one or both of 803.03.D and 803.04.A, which require you to take the stance that results in the least movement of objects that are part of the course and which prohibit you from moving a branch to "make room for a throwing motion".

Conclusion:
A player can hold on to something behind her lie, in certain circumstances, without violating the PDGA rules. In general that which is not prohibited by the PDGA rules is allowed, provided of course, that the action done by the player is not considered "a willful attempt to circumvent the rules of play". (This, of course, is cheating!)

Other Comments:
Many members of the committee have actually tried to hold on to some object behind their lie, while leaning forward to throw or putt. In our opinion this action makes the ensuing throw/putt MORE difficult to accomplish.

Yours Sincerely
The PDGA Rules Committee
Dr. Rick Voakes
Harold Duvall
Joe Garcia
Mark Ellis
Conrad Damon
Carlton Howard
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