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clausr
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PostPosted: Wed May 13, 2015 12:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Oh ya, I'm in for Tuesday
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lissyssil
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PostPosted: Wed May 13, 2015 12:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

clausr wrote:
What doesn't make sense is the making of cards based on pools. The rules should make cards strictly by score and not be affected by what pool you are in. If you shot the best score over 2 weeks you deserve to be on the top card IMO. Silly silly rule.
Claus
I disagree. Traditionally, the lowest cumulative scores in each of the pools have been carded together. Why? So that you can see what your direct competitors are doing, and whether you have to step up your game, or can "coast" in for the pool win. Putting Cyle on the top card means he'd have no idea what kind of round his direct competitors are having. Perhaps not so important for QB Challenge 1, where there's a ten stroke difference between him and you, but imagine a QB challenge where there's a one stroke difference...
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clausr
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PostPosted: Wed May 13, 2015 12:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

lissyssil wrote:
clausr wrote:
What doesn't make sense is the making of cards based on pools. The rules should make cards strictly by score and not be affected by what pool you are in. If you shot the best score over 2 weeks you deserve to be on the top card IMO. Silly silly rule.
Claus
I disagree. Traditionally, the lowest cumulative scores in each of the pools have been carded together. Why? So that you can see what your direct competitors are doing, and whether you have to step up your game, or can "coast" in for the pool win. Putting Cyle on the top card means he'd have no idea what kind of round his direct competitors are having. Perhaps not so important for QB Challenge 1, where there's a ten stroke difference between him and you, but imagine a QB challenge where there's a one stroke difference...


You may disagree but it reality it doesn't really work that way you think.
Your 1 stroke example proves my point not yours. If I was only one stroke behind cyle I would also be on the top card with him and competing against him. Not separate cards.

I maintain that you should be playing with your peers, which is players with similar scores. Not with players with similar handycap. handicaps are a reflection of how you did over ~ 1year of all courses combined. Probably 3years in twirlies case. Pretty irrelevant to the previous 2 weeks.
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Roxie
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PostPosted: Wed May 13, 2015 1:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Claus for President!
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Roxie
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PostPosted: Wed May 13, 2015 1:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Oh ya, I'm in for Tuesday
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Canadianzombie
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PostPosted: Wed May 13, 2015 2:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm in, Mark Earle. I should have enough league/competition scores for a handicap.
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Thumber
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PostPosted: Wed May 13, 2015 2:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

In
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andros
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PostPosted: Wed May 13, 2015 3:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Canadianzombie wrote:
I'm in, Mark Earle. I should have enough league/competition scores for a handicap.


Right you are.

http://www.odgc.ca/forums/viewtopic.php?t=11818
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C-Kyle
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PostPosted: Wed May 13, 2015 3:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mark...figure something out...thus is dumb...I get that it's the rules bit I shouldn't be able to win pool B with a better score than pool A...if anybody disagrees I'll take the free money... But I would rather u switch me and Rick
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Thumber
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PostPosted: Wed May 13, 2015 3:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Cyle shot 50 and 49 and misses pool A by 0.1Hc, even though he is second after the two rounds with 99

Rick shoots 59 and 55 and has no HC. Sitting 114

Cyle has pool b by 10 strokes

If they were switched, each would be in second place in second place for their pool

I fail to see how placing rick in pool b creates a disadvantage for cyle or players in pool b

I am also not trying to argue with the TD about this, but can't really grasp the logic being used.

Let players of similar scores compete with one another, which in this case, is allowed by the rules
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LeppyR64
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PostPosted: Wed May 13, 2015 3:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I agree with Cyle and Claus that Cyle should be in Group A. The provision is there at the discretion of the TD. As the most obvious decision is to move Marc out to B and Cyle would be affected and Cyle wishes to move up the point should be moot.

I disagree in general with Claus' statement that groupings should not be done by handicap. The whole point of the handicap system is that we compete on a competitive level. A handicap is an indicator of your expected performance. If you exceed your performance then you should be rewarded by winning your flight in the QB challenge, not pushed up into the next group where if you play as expected and lose your group.

Not that anyone would do this but grouping by score creates the ability to allow a low group A player to tank and place themselves into the next group where they can win more easily. (See: Sandbagging). Grouping by handicap keeps this honest by default. It would make this more accurate to base the groupings in the final week of a QB on the first week handicaps but this is extra administration that is not required.
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Last edited by LeppyR64 on Wed May 13, 2015 3:58 pm; edited 3 times in total
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Ken Darcovich
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PostPosted: Wed May 13, 2015 4:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

This situation is the OPPOSITE of sandbagging.

If Cyle has has a B-level handicap, but an A-level two-round total, and
he WANTS to move up, then let him.

Really, the raw score should trump everything here, along with the player's wishes.

Leppy expressed a differing point of view where he doesn't want
to play two hot rounds and then be sent to the firing squad as his prize. That's fine too.
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LeppyR64
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PostPosted: Wed May 13, 2015 6:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ken Darcovich wrote:
This situation is the OPPOSITE of sandbagging.


I agree, this specific situation with Cyle is the opposite of sandbagging.

clausr wrote:
What doesn't make sense is the making of cards based on pools. The rules should make cards strictly by score and not be affected by what pool you are in. If you shot the best score over 2 weeks you deserve to be on the top card IMO. Silly silly rule.


The rest of my post was referring to this post from claus. If we just group cards based on raw score then if a low handicapper has a bad first round then they are more likely to be a shoe-in to win the B pool (rewarding their bad round with cash) and forcing someone who is typically more deserving of a B pool run up into the A pool (punishing them for having a good round).

It may be that there is a Pro/Am divide that I'm not addressing here. Cyle has the skill to be in pool A. The pride of winning Pool A vs taking free money in pool B I can definitely understand. Having one of you folks have a poor round and pop down into the B pool just because you had a bad (by your standards) day and wipe out my two good (for me) rounds all because the groups are made by raw score instead of handicap.

Heck let's be honest here, what's more likely to happen is that I'm going to turn in another bomb of a round like my last one and end up in the C pool and then scoop the C pool when I really belong in the B group by handicap.
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Jason Lepack
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bbp
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PostPosted: Thu May 14, 2015 7:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The rules that govern the QB groupings have been on the books since the start of TOSS QB Challenges. We have all entered into the season with the existing rules. If there are problems with some rules they should have been vetted prior to the start of the season, not mid season. Pressure should not be put on a TD to change rules during their event/programming/league.
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briggs
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PostPosted: Thu May 14, 2015 8:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

bbp wrote:
The rules that govern the QB groupings have been on the books since the start of TOSS QB Challenges. We have all entered into the season with the existing rules. If there are problems with some rules they should have been vetted prior to the start of the season, not mid season. Pressure should not be put on a TD to change rules during their event/programming/league.


+1

Thank you voice of reason.
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Ken Darcovich
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PostPosted: Thu May 14, 2015 8:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

bbp wrote:
The rules that govern the QB groupings have been on the books since the start of TOSS QB Challenges. We have all entered into the season with the existing rules. If there are problems with some rules they should have been vetted prior to the start of the season, not mid season. Pressure should not be put on a TD to change rules during their event/programming/league.


Yep, fair point.

The points raised so far about suggesting a change are still valid. In view
of what Geoff points out, that's how far it should be taken. If Mark
ignores these suggestions, it's totally in his purview to do so.
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lissyssil
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PostPosted: Thu May 14, 2015 9:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The rules are what they are. Officially, the pools will stand as described above.

This doesn't stop C-Kyle from donating his Pool B money to the person who places second in the pool, and making an unwritten agreement with the five guys in Pool A that if he beats all of them, the official winner gives his Pool A money to Cyle.

It could go even further, and you guys could make an unwritten agreement that if Rick beats all the guys in Pool B (besides Cyle), then the official winner of Pool B donates his winnings to Rick....

Y'all figure it out. I'm officially sticking with the pools as described above.
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mycarguyrob
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PostPosted: Mon May 18, 2015 9:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

in
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Canadianzombie
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PostPosted: Mon May 18, 2015 12:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Just a quick question, what division am I in and do you have a handicap (other than my throw) for me?
Thanks
Mark
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lissyssil
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PostPosted: Mon May 18, 2015 4:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Your handicap is 21.5 this week. There are no divisions in TOSS, the discussion above you're reading is about the quarterback challenge. Every third week, the cumulative raw score of all participants is totalled, and the person (or persons, if multiple pools) who had the lowest cumulative score in their pool wins cash.

Why quarterback challenge? Because your five dollar entry fee each week is split into three parts. 1. $3 for payout that night. 2. $1 to the ODGC. 3. $1 to the quarterback challenge. Thus, that $1 is a quarter of the payout money you put in each week. smile
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