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Rolly
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 31, 2014 12:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

My observations.

the last 2 finals of OMPL has happened after LNF. Im going by memory but the final 3 and 4 years ago has been past LNF too. so to change things like this is not going to work.

the reality is come sept 1 when playoffs start also is the season for DG finals/championships all over ontario and quebec. this cuts into people time to play playoff matches.

Also i have previously over the years offered an up to the date list of the standings as each round finished to the PC people, to start plugging in PC points but was told EVERY time to wait til the standings are final. This years standings were edited 7 times as finishing places were finalized. Never have you had to wait til the end to plug in scores. I have offered up standings after each round, and standings can be updated after each round next year too.

Besides for symbolic reasons I dont know why OMPL cant finish after LNF. Really at that point in time its down to less then 4 people.

Also OMPL does raise 5$ a head ( year before last excluded when it was a 3$-ODGC and 3.50 donation to both Ettyville and Shire-so in other words 10$ a head last year to the community as a whole) since it became an official ODGC event. That is 166% more per head then all the other events guarantee to the club I believe (if its 3$ a head as per the norm). Sure left over $$ from some events kicks in more, but a bit of wiggle room would be appreciated. This year 92% of the league was finished the morning of LNF.

Re: Peli team.
I like the idea of transparency, because you know, one would not want to see someone left off the team because of personal relationships, for example if the captain has a hate on for a player who's good enough to make the team but chooses not to take them. It could happen, and its not fair.
I'd go with ratings and HC over PC points. take the best players who are playing, not weather they can make it to specific events to build up PC points. like someone before said, some people just cant do most weekends but can show up to Tue's galore kick ass and get no PC points til end of season.
but at the end of the day its the same racecourse and whatever is chosen we all race it.


Last edited by Rolly on Fri Jan 31, 2014 12:58 pm; edited 1 time in total
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bbp
King Geoffrey


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 31, 2014 1:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rolly wrote:
Never have you had to wait til the end to plug in scores.


You have to wait to get the champ and runner-up.

So what you're proposing is that the PC director daily check the OMPL forum, and when changes are noted, change the PC standings, instead of doing it once. So much for making it easier.

Quote:

Besides for symbolic reasons I dont know why OMPL cant finish after LNF. Really at that point in time its down to less then 4 people.


It can finish after LNF. I have no problems with that. The players will just get the average of the points for PC.

Quote:

Also OMPL does raise 5$ a head ( year before last excluded when it was a 3$-ODGC and 3.50 donation to both Ettyville and Shire-so in other words 10$ a head last year to the community as a whole) since it became an official ODGC event. That is 166% more per head then all the other events guarantee to the club I believe (if its 3$ a head as per the norm). Sure left over $$ from some events kicks in more, but a bit of wiggle room would be appreciated. This year 92% of the league was finished the morning of LNF.


This is irrelevant to the conversation. (FYI, LNF has given the Club +$1000 over the years it's been run)

Quote:

Re: Peli team.
I like the idea of transparency, because you know, one would not want to see someone left off the team because of personal relationships, for example if the captain has a hate on for a player who's good enough to make the team but chooses not to take them. It could happen, and its not fair.
I'd go with ratings and HC over PC points. take the best players who are playing, not weather they can make it to specific events to build up PC points. like someone before said, some people just cant do most weekends but can show up to Tue's galore kick ass and get no PC points til end of season.but at the end of the day its the same racecourse and whatever is chosen we all race it.


Not sure what the bolded section means.
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bbp
King Geoffrey


Joined: 08 Dec 2013
Posts: 1938
Location: On the green

PostPosted: Fri Jan 31, 2014 1:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here's where I'm sitting right now with the PC Series.

I built it in 2008, with the help of many. The points system was tested and changed about 10 times before it initially came out. And it has had some minor changes as we worked things out. I ran it for 3 years on my own. And helped out with it the last 2 as I ran the Club.

I think the PC Series is a great thing for our region and a way to recognize the amazing selection of programming that the members of the Club offer to the regions DGers. I think it also recognizes the work and visions the TDs do so you can play DG.

I have never added anything to the job of a TD if they enter their event into the Series (and all it takes to enter their event is to say OK). No extra fees. No forms. No change to the format of the event. Nothing. Just a standings that I can plug into a spread sheet. In the 3 years I did it alone, I even advertised their event for them.

I think it's a fantastic way to recognize the player who plays the ODGC events and consistently finds success. It doesn't do a good job of recognizing 2 place down, even though they have also found success and should be recognized for their achievements.

There needs to be a finish to the season. A real finish. Not a "when I can play" finish. A competitive format needs a finish. A date where everything is done. Its the fairest way to do it.

I have heard over the last couple of years some comments about the series:

It's not a real series because of the different formats of tournaments offered, and compared to the OD Tour and the QDGT, the PC Series was subpar, as these were better series because all of the events where standardized.

The PC Series doesn't mean anything to anyone but the Champion and that most players don't care.

Some don't even know why the PC Series exists or what the PC Champ gets for winning.

The Tiered system is unfair and forces players to attend 3 particular events to be competitive (not true as it was won in 2010 with horrific showings in the Tier 1 events).

I thought I would take it back on (along with my commitments to the Club as a member of the MarComm team under Old Man...one more volunteer in the club doing more than one job). But it seems that I have taken it as far as I can and its time for a new vision as mine is just mine.
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John Pytel
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Joined: 17 Aug 2005
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Location: Ottawa, Ontario, Canada

PostPosted: Fri Jan 31, 2014 2:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

bbp wrote:
John Pytel wrote:

If this is to garner more excitement as LNF being the event to make the final PC determinations and draw people. I 100% get that and think it's cool but maybe we need to re-brand it somewhat to PC Club finals or something and make it a policy of the clubs or something and drift away from "league night".


It's just a name. The name has a history attached to it. I see no reason to change it and rebrand it. It has recognition even in MTL.

Quote:

I think sometimes the intent may be obvious but it needs to be stated and the event was always promoted as a League Night bonus.


I've never promoted it that way. Where do you see that happening?

Quote:

"All things can finish the week before" is not necessarily right. I'll assume that sanctioned event post LNF would fall into the next calender year PC race. Give TD's a chance to still run some late events. Fright night, etc


An event held at night, in costumes, isn't really the competitive event I think about when I think about a series. Back in the day, when FFFM was actually an annual event, it was discussed whether or not to include it, but we came to a decision that it was more a fun event (where some players stopped playing in the middle of the round to set off fireworks or scare others with their prosthetics).

A series needs an end. It's been LNF for years. I would like it to actually be the end event.

Quote:
OMPL? As long as payment isn't the end date then you stand a chance. lol.


Are you proposing the end event be OMPL?


Again I think my points are being missed.

League Night Final was an event to celebrate league night.

Now we are suggesting its' the end to the PC race and all things "club" for the season. I'm ok with that but make it known and policy. The "obviousness" doesn't flow to everybody when it's called "League night finals". History aside the suggestion is now its ODGC season finals. That's ok, nea,t and cool but let's be upfront and make it that in the discussion. Which is what I think you are trying to do support by Pauls comment.

Promoted it or not there is outcomse to the LNF that are a benefit to league night particiation. I assume that's where the name and benifits come from.

Thanks for the Ettyville slam and /or doing anything for the ODGC membership and sanctioning (giving money to the ODGC to support the food bank). Noted.

I your event is to be the end then that's your decision. Your club right?
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King Geoffrey


Joined: 08 Dec 2013
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 31, 2014 2:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

John Pytel wrote:

Thanks for the Ettyville slam and /or doing anything for the ODGC membership and sanctioning (giving money to the ODGC to support the food bank). Noted.


The Ettyville slam? Where did I slam Ettyville?

Quote:

I your event is to be the end then that's your decision. Your club right?


...
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Thumber
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 31, 2014 2:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If I am reading all this right, I think what Geoff is trying to do is to create a little pomp and circumstance. LNF after party is our last get together of the season. it would be nice to be able to announce the PC winner at that party and have a little ceremony.

With OMPL ending weeks after LNFs it means there is no community recognition of the player who did the best over the course of the season.

I understand that OMPL is difficult to get finished. It has been an issue with the league ever since I joined the club. Geoff has presented an option to deal with this

Another option would be for OMPL to not be included in the PC race. Not saying that's what should happen, just that its an option.
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King Geoffrey


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 31, 2014 2:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thumber wrote:

Another option would be for OMPL to not be included in the PC race. Not saying that's what should happen, just that its an option.


Not an option, in my opinion, at all. OMPL requires more commitment than most events.
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Thumber
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 31, 2014 2:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

bbp wrote:
Thumber wrote:

Another option would be for OMPL to not be included in the PC race. Not saying that's what should happen, just that its an option.


Not an option, in my opinion, at all. OMPL requires more commitment than most events.


Again, I am just presenting options.
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John Pytel
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 31, 2014 2:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

bbp wrote:
John Pytel wrote:

Thanks for the Ettyville slam and /or doing anything for the ODGC membership and sanctioning (giving money to the ODGC to support the food bank). Noted.


The Ettyville slam? Where did I slam Ettyville?

Quote:

I your event is to be the end then that's your decision. Your club right?


...


Sorry Geoff. I should explain a bit more.

This is club buxx x2 to me.

Members/TD create things for the club. Run them. Then the expect or adjust them into policy.

Club buxx at none TOSS events was the example. PC is the end of the ODGC season from a PC standpoint and OMPL and Costume events (outside of what the membership likes) need to be left out or adjust? That's one TD influencing club policy or other TD's/

I respect a TD's amonymity up to the point they effect other events or the club at large.

To me PC is a club thing. If I'm wrong then let me know because the way to PC is to sanction with the ODGC as I understand it.

I do hear you on competive golf but my point was ODGC events post LNF that "qualify" for PC should roll into next year so a TD can put on a fall event and participate. If participation is an attraction or worth the cost of sanctionning.

I don't rock and roll with this PM stuff but and apoligize for not being clear. As you'll note I respond to your whole post and not in convenient snip its as I've pointed out in the past. It's a conversation not an issolation of sentences.
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bbp
King Geoffrey


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 31, 2014 2:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

John Pytel wrote:

This is club buxx x2 to me.

Members/TD create things for the club. Run them. Then the expect or adjust them into policy.


You think the BoD needs to make a policy for this?

Quote:
PC {I think you mean LNF} is the end of the ODGC season from a PC standpoint and OMPL and Costume events (outside of what the membership likes) need to be left out or adjust? That's one TD influencing club policy or other TD's/


Who said OMPL can't be included or needs to be adjusted? That's a false statement. I'm not trying to change OMPL. I'm trying to get players to commit to the commitment they signed up for at the beginning of the OMPL season.



Quote:
To me PC is a club thing. If I'm wrong then let me know because the way to PC is to sanction with the ODGC as I understand it.


I would agree.

Quote:

I do hear you on competive golf but my point was ODGC events post LNF that "qualify" for PC should roll into next year so a TD can put on a fall event and participate. If participation is an attraction or worth the cost of sanctionning.


If it's a truly competitive event, then absolutely it could be included. I would like the "finish line" event to be consistent every year, though. It should be an event that is always on the schedule.
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John Pytel
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 31, 2014 2:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

bbp wrote:
John Pytel wrote:

This is club buxx x2 to me.

Members/TD create things for the club. Run them. Then the expect or adjust them into policy.


You think the BoD needs to make a policy for this?

Quote:
PC {I think you mean LNF} is the end of the ODGC season from a PC standpoint and OMPL and Costume events (outside of what the membership likes) need to be left out or adjust? That's one TD influencing club policy or other TD's/


Who said OMPL can't be included or needs to be adjusted? That's a false statement. I'm not trying to change OMPL. I'm trying to get players to commit to the commitment they signed up for at the beginning of the OMPL season.



Quote:
To me PC is a club thing. If I'm wrong then let me know because the way to PC is to sanction with the ODGC as I understand it.


I would agree.

Quote:

I do hear you on competive golf but my point was ODGC events post LNF that "qualify" for PC should roll into next year so a TD can put on a fall event and participate. If participation is an attraction or worth the cost of sanctionning.


If it's a truly competitive event, then absolutely it could be included. I would like the "finish line" event to be consistent every year, though. It should be an event that is always on the schedule.


as usual we are on the same page but not agreeing.

I'm all for LNF being the end of PC.
I think if ANY event or TD is imposing (take that lightly in the OMPL context) on any other TD anything then it's a policy isssue. Inferred or not as many TD's felt obligated to deal in club bucks.

The alternative is that dec 31 is the end of PC and Ice league carries over. Do I see the excitement in that versus what LNF could bring? No and neither to do and I'm sure that's why you are proposing LNF as the end of PC. PC = club. For sure I think this is a policy thing and I'd support it.

When I speak branding I'm not talking name change but more the definition of what it is. TD runs the show. It can still be a League night event. If it's the end date for the PC series then it's crossing over. Like club buxx did.

Just to try and be more clear I had no issue with club buxx in TOSS. It's when club buxx became a club thing /policy that it was an issue for many club members.

If it's club property and somebody runs it on behalf of the club. (CC, PC as 2 eaxmples) then the club governance needs to be engaged in my opinion.
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bbp
King Geoffrey


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 31, 2014 3:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

John Pytel wrote:

If it's club property and somebody runs it on behalf of the club. (CC, PC as 2 eaxmples) then the club governance needs to be engaged in my opinion.


If the BoD wants to step in here and set policies on how the PC works, I'll step back and wait for a policy on the issue. Once they are in place, I'll take a second look at the way they feel the PC should be run and decide from there whether or not to continue it the roll of managing the series.
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Thumber
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 31, 2014 3:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

bbp wrote:
John Pytel wrote:

If it's club property and somebody runs it on behalf of the club. (CC, PC as 2 eaxmples) then the club governance needs to be engaged in my opinion.


If the BoD wants to step in here and set policies on how the PC works, I'll step back and wait for a policy on the issue. Once they are in place, I'll take a second look at the way they feel the PC should be run and decide from there whether or not to continue it the roll of managing the series.


The PC Series is not a club policy at this time. The BoD has enough on their plate right now, and is not considering the creation of a policy to govern this series.
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Rolly
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Joined: 11 Oct 2005
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 31, 2014 3:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thumber wrote:
bbp wrote:
John Pytel wrote:

If it's club property and somebody runs it on behalf of the club. (CC, PC as 2 eaxmples) then the club governance needs to be engaged in my opinion.


If the BoD wants to step in here and set policies on how the PC works, I'll step back and wait for a policy on the issue. Once they are in place, I'll take a second look at the way they feel the PC should be run and decide from there whether or not to continue it the roll of managing the series.


The PC Series is not a club policy at this time. The BoD has enough on their plate right now, and is not considering the creation of a policy to govern this series.


LULS, more gov is never the answer smile
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Rolly
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 31, 2014 3:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

(give a min or two to make sure quotes are lined up) smile

bbp wrote:


You have to wait to get the champ and runner-up.

So what you're proposing is that the PC director daily check the OMPL forum, and when changes are noted, change the PC standings, instead of doing it once. So much for making it easier.


Yes that’s EXACTLY what I said. Not. What I can do is notify the PC powers when each round is finished and results are locked in for individuals after each round. you would not even have to click the forum post. At the end of the day, you still got to enter the same # of scores, weather you do it in one night, or over 3 nights.

bbp wrote:

It can finish after LNF. I have no problems with that. The players will just get the average of the points for PC.

We’ll yes you do have a problem with it. Don’t say you don’t, you want it to change. Its been a late finisher, and your trying to change it.

bbp wrote:

This is irrelevant to the conversation. (FYI, LNF has given the Club +$1000 over the years it's been run)

All im saying is im required to give a minimum of 3$ a head, I have always given 5$ (except for the one year mentioned where the club got 3-community got 10). I have done a little more then required willingly and never asked for much in return, just wishing I would get a little leeway in return, instead of being told its got to change so an event that coincidently you run gets more pomp and circumstance as Shane puts it. You know give and take. Besides a post in the forum I don’t really ask much I don’t think. Im not saying the club’s going to retire to FLA from OMPL. You ask for 100%, I give 166%, I get this. Fair enough.



bbp wrote:
like someone before said, some people just cant do most weekends but can show up to Tue's galore kick ass and get no PC points til end of season.
Not sure what the bolded section means.

What I meant was a player could play only tue’s have the best HC in the club, have to work on Saturdays religiously never attend a weekend event all year and finish 19th in the standings as they get 2 pc events in.



Thumbs wrote:

Another option would be for OMPL to not be included in the PC race. Not saying that's what should happen, just that its an option.

bbp wrote:

Not an option, in my opinion, at all. OMPL requires more commitment than most events.


Are you alluding that OMPL should not be in the PC race at all?
What ill do is make a decision by Sunday weather this talk re: OMPL and PC is really even needed. This should provide enough time for planning for the years PC race.
Cheers.


Last edited by Rolly on Fri Jan 31, 2014 3:57 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Thumber
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 31, 2014 3:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rolly I was not advocating that OMPL be excluded from the PC race. I was just presenting some options and that was one. Geoff has already said above that he wants OMPL included in the PC Series.

I'm sure you two can get together and figure this out.

I recommend a phone call. Forums are terrible for meaningful discussion
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Rolly
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 31, 2014 4:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thumber wrote:
Rolly I was not advocating that OMPL be excluded from the PC race. I was just presenting some options and that was one. Geoff has already said above that he wants OMPL included in the PC Series.

I'm sure you two can get together and figure this out.

I recommend a phone call. Forums are terrible for meaningful discussion


i know, sounds good, it was a reference to Pentons response which i dont think he wants it out either at the end of the day, it just sounded open ended and unclear to me.
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Rolly
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 31, 2014 4:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

another thing that annoyed me here Penton: you sent me a couple of PM's asking me what i thought about stuff, i responded respectfully with a few quetions hoping to open a dialogue and heard no response. 3 days later which is a forum eternity for you i had to ask for a response to my response. from my end it appears there was not much intent for discussion.

Last edited by Rolly on Fri Jan 31, 2014 4:07 pm; edited 1 time in total
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King Geoffrey


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 31, 2014 4:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Your response
Quote:

...it should not be a problem...


Then you gave your opinions on the matter. I listened. I'm done listening. I'm done with this. Someone else can do it, or not do it. I don't care.
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Rolly
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 31, 2014 4:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

it should not be a problem as people should get it done, but they don't and wont by the end date. Should as in they should buckle down and do it, not should as it should not be a problem.

that's what i meant by should. You know how my english can be big grin

Run the PC points, don't quit it has value to the club, dont get frustrated its minor stuff in the grand scheme of life. come one month from now this will all be forgotten.


Last edited by Rolly on Fri Jan 31, 2014 4:41 pm; edited 3 times in total
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