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Roxie
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PostPosted: Tue May 01, 2012 11:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Come on page 4
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John Pytel
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PostPosted: Tue May 01, 2012 12:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

What would the ruling be on the bag violation(s) on OMR couch after Fright Night when I fell asleep watching rock band. I'm hoping for "no strokes".

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Jefrey A. Brother
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PostPosted: Tue May 01, 2012 1:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Why? Was your bag on his hill?
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Roxie
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PostPosted: Tue May 01, 2012 1:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Oh I would expect one or two strokes.
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Thumber
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PostPosted: Tue May 01, 2012 1:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jefrey A. Brother wrote:
Why? Was your bag on his hill?


And were you rolling towards his bag?
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Jefrey A. Brother
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PostPosted: Tue May 01, 2012 1:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

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Jefrey A. Brother
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PostPosted: Thu May 03, 2012 7:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Geoff,


The rules don't directly address this type of situation. In my opinion, you acted correctly in trying to move your bag (since the rules do state that you shouldn't leave your stuff where it could interfere with a disc in play). Whether you moved your bag successfully should not matter. A similar situation is where someone stops a disc from rolling into a lake (from which it cannot be retrieved) so that that the player doesn't lose the disc (he still plays it as OB). This sort of "helpful interference" is not covered in the rules.


The Rules Committee is working on the next revision. If we have a chance we will approach this issue.


-Conrad
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Jefrey A. Brother
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PostPosted: Thu May 03, 2012 6:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Full conversation:

I wrote:

Good day gents,

I'm sure you've already dealt with this issue about a hundred times, but one more time would be great.

Please read the following scenario:

"On Saturday Mark and I played a match at CF

On #10, mark was putting across the green. I was standing maybe 25 feet downhill from the basket. Mark's put hit the basket and then started rolling. I picked up my bag and let the disc continue.

I have no idea what i was supposed to do. i suspect I am supposed to just leave the bag on the ground and let the disc hit it "

What should the player do?

AND then add:

"If, however, you attempt to pick up the bag, and as you are doing so, the disc hits your bag, there is a case for interference there, but not one that I would have called."

Is there a case for interference?

AND then add:

"Just so we are clear, technically he consciously altered the path of a thrown disc. He saw the disc heading for the bag but instead of letting the bag stop the disc he moved the bag and then watched the disc continue on an alternate path. One could also argue that the thrower considered the bag sitting there and thought it would stop the disc if it happened to be near it."

Is there any merit to this argument?

Thanks for your time on this matter.

Sincerely,
Geoff Penton
Ottawa, ON
www.odgc.ca


Reply:

Conrad wrote:
Geoff,
The rules don't directly address this type of situation. In my opinion, you acted correctly in trying to move your bag (since the rules do state that you shouldn't leave your stuff where it could interfere with a disc in play). Whether you moved your bag successfully should not matter. A similar situation is where someone stops a disc from rolling into a lake (from which it cannot be retrieved) so that that the player doesn't lose the disc (he still plays it as OB). This sort of "helpful interference" is not covered in the rules.

The Rules Committee is working on the next revision. If we have a chance we will approach this issue.
-Conrad


Then I replied:

I wrote:
Thanks Conrad.

After sending this to you gentlemen, I was left thinking, "why on earth is there a bag anywhere on the ground that could have an effect on a discs movement?" This situation is only happening because of careless dropping/leaving of bags. I personally came to the conclusion that this need not be a Rules of the Game rule, but a Tournament/Tour rule. I don't know the solution, but I'm pretty sure it isn't a ruling on the way the game is played, but how to carry yourself on the course.

Thanks for the reply,
Geoff Penton
Ottawa, ON


Then another reply:

Jim wrote:
It can happen without anyone being particularly careless about bag placement. In fact, I've seen it happen at least twice where the owner of the bag was not at all in the wrong.

Have you ever seen anyone hit a tree and end up behind the tee or their lie (it can also happen in a strong wind)?

Have you ever seen a course where an errant throw can cross over to another fairway?

Jim


Then I replied:

I wrote:
True, I too have seen several bag hits in my disc golf career, though most have come from errant throws from other holes/fairways. These incidents are definitely not the fault of the bag owner, more so the nature of our game/sport (tight layout, close proximity, bad course design, etc). Though, if on the same card, in a tournament setting, the bag owners should exercise some level of awareness of where they leave their belongings.

If an errant shot, after a nasty deflection off a tree, came flying back towards the group, there's nothing to be done about it and that's just sh!tty luck. Though, in the incident I sent, the player left their bag on a green, on a side of a hill. That's just carelessness. Now, the incident happened during a non-PDGA round, but a semi-official local league round, so I would expect some friendly allowances here, but this sort of stuff is beyond the Rules of the Game, instead it's more how to act in a PDGA setting; Be aware of your belongings.

I don't envy your responsibilities. Our club just had a conversation about a basket falling over when a disc hits it. Ridiculous. This shouldn't be in the rules, because this shouldn't happen. Just like a bag shouldn't be anywhere near another persons throw/line/roll/mistake.

Thanks again for your time on this matter.

Sincerely,
Geoff Penton
Ottawa, ON
www.odgc.ca


I'll update on the next reply...if any.
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Jefrey A. Brother
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 21, 2012 1:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Doc, on Tuesday, putted on 6, hit the basket and the disc dropped. It rolled back towards him and his bag. He lifted his bag and it rolled another 10-15'. thumbsup
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Thumber
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 21, 2012 2:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Which is exactly what I did
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Chuck Shick
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 21, 2012 2:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Anyhting else would have been cheating.

And we're not talking ambiguous jump-putt cheating, but rather blatant negligence cheating.
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Jefrey A. Brother
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 21, 2012 2:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Chuck Shick wrote:
Anyhting else would have been cheating.

And we're not talking ambiguous jump-putt cheating, but rather blatant negligence cheating.


laughing laughing laughing laughing

I'm going to laugh all night with that one.
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Caged Wisdom
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 23, 2012 8:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

In the spirit of full disclosure, I wasn't so much protecting the sanctity of the game, but rather my tote bag -- those babies aren't cheap (and/or given out for free at conferences).
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Jefrey A. Brother
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 25, 2012 12:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

2013 Rules wrote:
804.03 Interference

A.A thrown disc that strikes a person or animal is played where it first comes to rest.

B.A thrown disc that is intentionally deflected or was caught and moved shall be given an approximate position at the point of contact.

C.A thrown disc at rest that has been moved shall be replaced to its approximate position (see 802.02.E). A marker disc at rest that has been moved shall be replaced to mark the approximate lie (see 802.03.F).

D.A player who intentionally interferes with another player's disc in any of the following ways shall receive two penalty throws:

1.Altering the course of a thrown disc (other than to prevent injury); or,

2.Moving a thrown disc or mini marker disc (other than in the process of identification, retrieval, or marking); or,

3.Obscuring a thrown disc or mini marker disc.


E.A player whose thrown disc was intentionally interfered with by another player as described in 804.03.D.1 has the option of a re-throw.

F.Players shall not stand or leave their equipment where interference with a disc in play may occur. A player may require other players to move themselves or their equipment if either could interfere with the throw. Refusal to do so is a courtesy violation.

G.Altering the course of a thrown disc with the consent of the thrower in order to prevent the disc from becoming lost is not punishable interference. Any disc whose course is altered for that reason is considered to be a lost disc.


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burjwahzeh
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 25, 2012 1:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sure, you _shall_ not do it.
A courtesy violation if you are asked to move and don't.

There's no other penalty here.
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Thumber
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PostPosted: Tue May 21, 2013 10:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jefrey A. Brother wrote:
2013 Rules wrote:
804.03 Interference

A.A thrown disc that strikes a person or animal is played where it first comes to rest.

B.A thrown disc that is intentionally deflected or was caught and moved shall be given an approximate position at the point of contact.

C.A thrown disc at rest that has been moved shall be replaced to its approximate position (see 802.02.E). A marker disc at rest that has been moved shall be replaced to mark the approximate lie (see 802.03.F).

D.A player who intentionally interferes with another player's disc in any of the following ways shall receive two penalty throws:

1.Altering the course of a thrown disc (other than to prevent injury); or,

2.Moving a thrown disc or mini marker disc (other than in the process of identification, retrieval, or marking); or,

3.Obscuring a thrown disc or mini marker disc.


E.A player whose thrown disc was intentionally interfered with by another player as described in 804.03.D.1 has the option of a re-throw.

F.Players shall not stand or leave their equipment where interference with a disc in play may occur. A player may require other players to move themselves or their equipment if either could interfere with the throw. Refusal to do so is a courtesy violation.

G.Altering the course of a thrown disc with the consent of the thrower in order to prevent the disc from becoming lost is not punishable interference. Any disc whose course is altered for that reason is considered to be a lost disc.



Now here is where it gets crazy

http://www.dgcoursereview.com/forums/showthread.php?t=88718

Player is putting uphill on an elevated basket. Takes shot, hits basket and disc starts rolling towards her. She stands her ground and does not move, allowing disc to hit her and stop. According to Chuck this is not intentional interference and no penalty applies. I can't believe you don't have to make any effort to get out of the way of a rolling disc. Essentially he is saying that once the disc is in motion all objects (bags) and people become part of the course and shall not move. In fact, if you try to get out of the way of another players rolling disc and contact it you could be charged with intentional interference

from now on on hole 8 at CF I will be asking all other players to lie on the ground 4 feet below the basket in a semi circle

Man our rules suck at times
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burjwahzeh
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PostPosted: Tue May 21, 2013 11:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thumber wrote:
...
Now here is where it gets crazy

http://www.dgcoursereview.com/forums/showthread.php?t=88718

... According to Chuck ...

Man our rules suck at times

Is this Chuck Kennedy we're talking about here?
Did he post something on dgcourse review?

I wouldn't take that at face value unless it's coming from Chuck via pdga website, or directly from him.

As for the suckiness of the rules at times, a stronger case can be made that the rules of disc golf as dictated by the PDGA miss the point all the time.

They're all we've got to use, though. Regrets, but I won't be volunteering to lead the PDGA rules committee.
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Thumber
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PostPosted: Tue May 21, 2013 11:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

its most definitely Chuck Kennedy
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burjwahzeh
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PostPosted: Tue May 21, 2013 11:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thumber wrote:
its most definitely Chuck Kennedy

But on DG Course review?
What does that guy figure he's doing soap boxing on dg course review?

What a terrible idea that was.

I don't care what he says on dg course review. If a disc is flying my way, I'm getting out of the way of it. I don't think anyone is going to mistake that for intentional interference. I also won't let my bag or anything else touch the disc if I can help it.

And believe me, I have quite the talent for unintentionally putting the space behind and to the side of me into play almost every round.
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Thumber
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PostPosted: Tue May 21, 2013 11:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The point was that the thrower has no obligation to try and get out of the way of their disc after release
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