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Jefrey A. Brother
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 26, 2013 10:49 am    Post subject: 801.01 Application of the Rules Reply with quote

Quote:
801.01 Application of the Rules

A. These rules have been designed to promote fair play for all disc golfers. In using these rules, players shall apply the rule that most directly addresses the situation at hand. If any point in dispute is not covered by the rules, the decision shall be made in accordance with fairness. Often a logical extension of the closest existing rule or the principles embodied in these rules will provide guidance for determining fairness.

B. Players are expected to call a violation when one has clearly occurred. Calls must be made promptly.

C. If in doubt, players may attempt to consult an official. If none is available, players have the option of proceeding with provisional throws as described in 804.06.

D. A player shall not receive a warning for a rules violation unless the rule specifically provides for a warning. Warnings do not carry over from one round to the next round or to a playoff.

E. A rules violation that results in a warning may be called by any player in the group, or by an official. All players in the group shall be advised of the warning, and it shall be noted on the scorecard.

F. A rules violation that results in one or more penalty throws may be called by any player in the group, or by an official. If called by a player, it must then be seconded by another player in the group.

G. Unless otherwise stated, any determination made by the group as a whole shall be made by a majority of the group, or by an official.

H. A throw or an action that is subject to penalty under more than one rule shall be marked and/or penalized in accordance with the rule that results in the most penalty throws, or, among rules that call for an equal penalty, the rule that was first violated.

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burjwahzeh
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 26, 2013 11:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

This is great.

So, IF, on the first tee, you yell out "MF!ER" as you throw a disc from (accidentally) the wrong teepad, only to have the thing become lost, then the courtesy violation doesn't count, the wrong teepad doesn't count, and the lost disc gets rethrown from the correct teepad after a 3 minute search.

3 off the tee.

Swearing allowed one more time.

Wrong lie rule is negated by the stronger lost disc penalty.

The courtesy violation negation is a stretch here, IMHO, because it had nothing to do with the throw, and everything to do with the behaviour of the player which should not be coupled to the act of throwing. However, applying the rule of logic in the spirit of the logic demonstrated time and again by the rules committee, the courtesy shouldn't apply. After all, you get do-overs for every other thing you could claim to be ignorant of. Why would this be different?
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Holly D
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 26, 2013 12:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

burjwahzeh wrote:
This is great.

So, IF, on the first tee, you yell out "MF!ER" as you throw a disc from (accidentally) the wrong teepad, only to have the thing become lost, then the courtesy violation doesn't count, the wrong teepad doesn't count, and the lost disc gets rethrown from the correct teepad after a 3 minute search.

3 off the tee.

Swearing allowed one more time.

Wrong lie rule is negated by the stronger lost disc penalty.

The courtesy violation negation is a stretch here, IMHO, because it had nothing to do with the throw, and everything to do with the behaviour of the player which should not be coupled to the act of throwing. However, applying the rule of logic in the spirit of the logic demonstrated time and again by the rules committee, the courtesy shouldn't apply. After all, you get do-overs for every other thing you could claim to be ignorant of. Why would this be different?
laughing


Would you honestly argue that the lost disc is the "rule that most directly addresses the situation at hand"?
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Jefrey A. Brother
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 26, 2013 12:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
803.03 Misplay

A. It is the responsibility of the player to play the course correctly. Before play begins, players shall attend the players' meeting and learn about any special conditions that may exist on the course, including extra holes, alternate teeing areas, alternate hole placements, out-of-bounds areas, mandatories, and drop zones.

B. A misplay has occurred if the player has failed to complete every hole on the course correctly and in the proper order, or has played from an incorrect lie for any throw.

C. In instances where the misplay rules affect players within a group differently, the group shall remain together while a hole is being completed by some of the group in order to verify scoring and rules compliance.

D. In instances where a misplay is discovered after the player has turned in the scorecard, the misplay shall not be replayed and the player shall receive a two-throw penalty for the misplay.

E. A misplay is not a stance violation, nor is it a practice throw.

F. A player who deliberately misplays the course to gain competitive advantage shall be penalized in accordance with Section 3.3 of the Competition Manual.

G. Types of misplay:
1.Incorrect Lie. The player has:
A. Teed off from a teeing area that is not the correct teeing area for the current hole; or,

B. Thrown from a lie established by a disc other than the thrown disc; or,

C. Played an out-of-bounds disc as if it were in-bounds; or,

D. Thrown from a lie established by a previous throw which passed a mandatory on the wrong side.

If no subsequent throws have been made after the misplayed throw, the player shall continue play from the correct lie and be assessed a one-throw penalty for the misplay. If an additional throw or throws have been made after the misplayed throw, the player shall complete the hole being played and be assessed a two-throw penalty for the misplay.

2. Wrong Target. The player has holed out on a target that is not the target for the hole being played. If no subsequent throw has been made, play continues from the resulting lie. If the target is a basket target, the disc is above the playing surface, and play proceeds according to 802.02.C. If the player has teed off on the next hole, a two-throw penalty shall be added to the score for the misplayed hole.

3. Failure To Hole Out. The player has teed off on a hole without having holed out on the previous hole. The score for the misplayed hole shall be the number of throws made, plus one for holing out, plus two penalty throws for the misplay. The player must not actually hole out on the previous hole. Intentionally failing to hole out constitutes withdrawal from competition.

4. Non-Sequential Play. The player has completed play on a hole in the wrong order. The player shall proceed to play the course in its proper order. Regardless of the number of holes skipped or played in the wrong order during the round, a total of two penalty throws shall be added to the player's total score for the misplay. The score earned from any completed hole shall stand, and any completed hole shall not be replayed.

5. Missed Hole Due To Late Arrival. The player has failed to play a hole due to late arrival. The player receives a score of par plus four for the hole. See Section 1.5 B of the Competition Manual.

6. Omitted Hole. The round has been completed, and the player has neglected to play a hole. The hole is scored the same as a hole missed due to late arrival.

7. Incorrect Hole. The player has completed play on a hole that is not part of the course for that round, in place of a hole that is part of the course for the round. The hole shall stand as played, and two penalty throws shall be added to the player's total score.

8. Extra Hole. The player has completed play on a hole that is not part of the course for that round. Two penalty throws shall be added to the player's total score. Throws made on the extra hole are not counted.




I would argue that the Misplay is a stronger penalty than the Lost Disc.[/quote]
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Jefrey A. Brother
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 26, 2013 12:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

And a courtesy could still be assessed for the swear, because it doesn't come with a penalty.
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 26, 2013 12:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
804.05 Lost Disc

A. A disc shall be declared lost if the player cannot locate it within three minutes after arriving at the spot where it was last seen. Any player in the group or an official may begin the timing of the three minutes, and must inform the group that the timing has begun. All players in the group must assist in searching for the disc. The disc shall be declared lost upon expiration of the three minutes.

B. A player whose disc is declared lost shall receive one penalty throw. The next throw shall be made from the previous lie.

C. The Director may designate a drop zone for lost discs on a particular hole. If a drop zone is provided, the player may throw from there instead of from the previous lie. In all cases the original throw plus one penalty throw shall be counted in the player's score.

D. If it is discovered, prior to the completion of the tournament, that a player's disc that was declared lost had been removed or taken, then the player shall have two throws removed from the score for that hole.

E. A marker disc that is lost shall be replaced to mark the approximate lie with no penalty.


AND, if it is considered lost, which it couldn't because the throw happened before it was lost, the next throw is from the previous lie, which is the wrong pad.
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 26, 2013 12:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

[quote="Jefrey A. Brother"]
Quote:
804.05 Lost Disc
AND, if it is considered lost, which it couldn't because the throw happened before it was lost, the next throw is from the previous lie, which is the wrong pad.

From G:
Quote:
If no subsequent throws have been made after the misplayed throw, the player shall continue play from the correct lie and be assessed a one-throw penalty for the misplay.

The disc is lost. The player returns to the pad, and realizes he threw from the wrong one at that time.
The lost disc penalty is a greater penalty than the one-stroke wrong lie.

Are you implying that because the disc was thrown from the wrong lie it should negate the lost disc? Where the discovery was made after everyone had to look for the disc, the lie shouldn't be a consideration. Discovery of the wrong lie doesn't happen until the player returns to the teepad.

I could have done a better job of building this case. Regrets.

I agree that the courtesy violation should stand, btw. I don't like the wording of application of rule section that permits only one penalty at a time, though. Courtesy violations should receive an explicit exemption from being exempt. A warning is still a violation. It just comes without a stroke.
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Last edited by burjwahzeh on Fri Apr 26, 2013 12:46 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Holly D
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 26, 2013 12:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

But it's not a one penalty situation. Two players are receiving penalties. (or warning, whatever.)
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 26, 2013 12:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

burjwahzeh wrote:
Courtesy violations should receive an explicit exemption from being exempt. A warning is still a violation. It just comes without a stroke.


This made my brain cramp
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 26, 2013 12:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

burjwahzeh wrote:
This is great.

So, IF, on the first tee, you yell out "MF!ER" as you throw a disc from (accidentally) the wrong teepad, only to have the thing become lost, then the courtesy violation doesn't count, the wrong teepad doesn't count, and the lost disc gets rethrown from the correct teepad after a 3 minute search.



So to summarize;

- 801.04 C - Courtesy warning for loud swearing
- 803.03 G.1.B. - Misplay Wrong tee - 1 stroke penalty
- 804.05 - Lost Disc - no penalty because of 801.01 H - the throw happened before the landing into the Lost World (shouldn't say no penalty, as they did lose their disc).

Next time they swear loudly, during that round, 1 more added.
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 26, 2013 12:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

They are both a one stroke penalty. Therefore, "equal".

Quote:
H. A throw or an action that is subject to penalty under more than one rule shall be marked and/or penalized in accordance with the rule that results in the most penalty throws, or, among rules that call for an equal penalty, the rule that was first violated.


The first rule that was violated was the throw from the wrong tee, regardless of when it was noticed.

But now you are insinuating that the card has already spent 3 minutes looking for the disc? Does that mean they all teed from the wrong tee? Everyone on the card is going to get stroked, and hopefully no one has thrown their second shot, cause then it's a two stroker + real throws. And the Lost Disc dude is actually coming out better, but everyone hates him/her.
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 29, 2013 10:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jefrey A. Brother wrote:
They are both a one stroke penalty. Therefore, "equal".


I've been reading the misplay as equivalent to a practice throw. I now believe I've misread this section of the rules. At this stage, the benefit of asking the question has been to my advantage.

Regarding the rest of the group: This is a case. The rest of the group isn't part of the case, except that they were there. If you insist, just consider this was a mixed division card. The player in question should have been using another tee, but did not.
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Last edited by burjwahzeh on Mon Apr 29, 2013 10:30 am; edited 1 time in total
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