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Jefrey A. Brother
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 25, 2012 1:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
801.02 Discs Used in Play
A.Discs used in play must meet all of the conditions set forth in the PDGA Technical Standards.

B.A disc which has been modified after production such that its original flight characteristics have been altered is illegal, excepting wear from usage during play and the moderate sanding of discs to smooth molding imperfections or scrapes. Discs excessively sanded or painted with a material of detectable thickness are illegal.

C.A disc which is cracked or perforated is illegal.

D.A disc that is questioned by another player or an official is illegal unless it is subsequently approved by the Director.

E.A player who throws an illegal disc during play shall receive two penalty throws, without a warning. A player who repeatedly throws an illegal disc during the round may be subject to disqualification in accordance with Section 3.3 of the PDGA Competition Manual.

F.All discs used in play, except mini marker discs, must be uniquely marked. A player shall receive a warning for the first instance of throwing an unmarked disc. Each subsequent throw by the player with an unmarked disc shall incur one penalty throw.



Quote:
D.A disc that is questioned by another player or an official is illegal unless it is subsequently approved by the Director.



Really?

"Hey dude, is that disc actually 175? Looks 177. Sorry, put it away for the round."

"Hey, are you actually allowed to use an Ultie disc in comp? Sorry, put it away."

Wow.
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John Pytel
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 25, 2012 1:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jefrey A. Brother wrote:
John Pytel wrote:
I don't know the rules let alone keep up with the changes let alone UNDERSTAND the changes. ie. optional re-throw.


Quote:
803.02 Optional Relief and Optional Re-throw
A.Optional Relief. A player may elect at any time to take optional relief. The lie may then be relocated to a new lie which is no closer to the target, and is on the line of play. One penalty throw shall be added to the player's score.

B.Optional Re-throw. A player may elect at any time to re-throw from the previous lie. The original throw plus one penalty throw shall be counted in the player's score.


Yes. I know this rule thanks to this forum. I unfortunately don't understand it in a "sport".

I also don't reall get "optional" relief in a sport either. I understand "un playable lie" in a sport.
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Thumber
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 25, 2012 1:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jefrey A. Brother wrote:
Quote:
801.02 Discs Used in Play
A.Discs used in play must meet all of the conditions set forth in the PDGA Technical Standards.

B.A disc which has been modified after production such that its original flight characteristics have been altered is illegal, excepting wear from usage during play and the moderate sanding of discs to smooth molding imperfections or scrapes. Discs excessively sanded or painted with a material of detectable thickness are illegal.

C.A disc which is cracked or perforated is illegal.

D.A disc that is questioned by another player or an official is illegal unless it is subsequently approved by the Director.

E.A player who throws an illegal disc during play shall receive two penalty throws, without a warning. A player who repeatedly throws an illegal disc during the round may be subject to disqualification in accordance with Section 3.3 of the PDGA Competition Manual.

F.All discs used in play, except mini marker discs, must be uniquely marked. A player shall receive a warning for the first instance of throwing an unmarked disc. Each subsequent throw by the player with an unmarked disc shall incur one penalty throw.



Quote:
D.A disc that is questioned by another player or an official is illegal unless it is subsequently approved by the Director.



Really?

"Hey dude, is that disc actually 175? Looks 177. Sorry, put it away for the round."

"Hey, are you actually allowed to use an Ultie disc in comp? Sorry, put it away."

Wow.


wow....sorry man, i think all the discs in your bag are illegal....too bad you can't play this round
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Jefrey A. Brother
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 25, 2012 1:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

John Pytel wrote:
Jefrey A. Brother wrote:
John Pytel wrote:
I don't know the rules let alone keep up with the changes let alone UNDERSTAND the changes. ie. optional re-throw.


Quote:
803.02 Optional Relief and Optional Re-throw
A.Optional Relief. A player may elect at any time to take optional relief. The lie may then be relocated to a new lie which is no closer to the target, and is on the line of play. One penalty throw shall be added to the player's score.

B.Optional Re-throw. A player may elect at any time to re-throw from the previous lie. The original throw plus one penalty throw shall be counted in the player's score.


Yes. I know this rule thanks to this forum. I unfortunately don't understand it in a "sport".

I also don't reall get "optional" relief in a sport either. I understand "un playable lie" in a sport.


Oh. Gotcha. Sorry.
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burjwahzeh
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 25, 2012 1:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Only one person needed for a warning, but two before you can get a stroke, and you still can't call your own foot fault because it's a loop hole in the rules. This is just insulting.

They still haven't done what they need to do most of all:

GET RID OF THE WARNINGS AND JUST START PENALIZING PEOPLE!

Loop hole closed, no more "you did it"... "no I didn't" garbage.

And let people call violations on themselves, for crying out loud.

That said, I'll hold any further comment on the rules until they're published and official and I've had a chance to read them.

Just when you thought they couldn't get worse...
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Jefrey A. Brother
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 25, 2012 1:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rumour has it it's gone to print: http://conraddamon.com/pdga/2013/rules2013.html#rule-807
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 25, 2012 1:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thumber wrote:
wow....sorry man, i think all the discs in your bag are illegal....too bad you can't play this round

Yes,
this rule represents a new "greatest failing". Calling violations on yourself and getting rid of the garbage rethrows and warnings is altruistic compared to a rule that allows you to neuter all of a competitor's equipment.

Guilty until judged innocent. Proof not required, only a TD decision is.

I'm going to go back to that Vibram article about bigger tournaments. I don't think "give disc golf a better rules set" is mentioned anywhere.

I wonder, are the people that wrote these new rules really proud of their work and vision?
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Thumber
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 25, 2012 1:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

burjwahzeh wrote:
Thumber wrote:
wow....sorry man, i think all the discs in your bag are illegal....too bad you can't play this round

Yes,
this rule represents a new "greatest failing". Calling violations on yourself and getting rid of the garbage rethrows and warnings is altruistic compared to a rule that allows you to neuter all of a competitor's equipment.

Guilty until judged innocent. Proof not required, only a TD decision is.

I'm going to go back to that Vibram article about bigger tournaments. I don't think "give disc golf a better rules set" is mentioned anywhere.

I wonder, are the people that wrote these new rules really proud of their work and vision?


I know my response to anyone saying I had to go find the TD to satisfy their contention that my disc was illegal would warrant a courtesy violation.

If someone tried this on a clearly legal disc i would issue an immediate courtesy warning and start issuing strokes if brought up again

The cheating rule covers all of this
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kenmlittle
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 25, 2012 2:07 pm    Post subject: Re: Changes coming for 2013 Reply with quote

Thumber wrote:
Got this off the pdga site

Definitions added: Approximate Position, Falling Putt, In-bounds, Position, Previous Lie, Re-throw, Tee Line


I don't actually see these in the new rules as posted online. I wonder if these are going to be included at some point or are they going into the comp manual?
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Jefrey A. Brother
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 25, 2012 6:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
804.05 Lost Disc

A disc shall be declared lost if the player cannot locate it within three minutes after arriving at the spot where it was last seen. Any player in the group or an official may begin the timing of the three minutes, and must inform the group that the timing has begun. All players in the group must assist in searching for the disc. The disc shall be declared lost upon expiration of the three minutes.

A player whose disc is declared lost shall receive one penalty throw. The next throw shall be made from the previous lie.

The Director may designate a drop zone for lost discs on a particular hole. If a drop zone is provided, the player may throw from there instead of from the previous lie. In all cases the original throw plus one penalty throw shall be counted in the player's score.

If it is discovered, prior to the completion of the tournament, that a player's disc that was declared lost had been removed or taken, then the player shall have two throws removed from the score for that hole.

A marker disc that is lost shall be replaced to mark the approximate lie with no penalty.


What kind of hole are you playing where the TD knows to put in a Lost Disc DZ? That's crazy.

I almost lost my marker at LNF. Stupid leaves.
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Jefrey A. Brother
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 25, 2012 6:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
804.04 Out-of-Bounds

A. A disc is out-of-bounds if its position is clearly and completely surrounded by an out-of-bounds area. See 802.02.B for determining when a disc in water or foliage has come to rest.

B. The out-of-bounds line is part of the out-of-bounds area.

C. A disc that cannot be found is considered to be out-of bounds if there is reasonable evidence that the disc came to rest within an out-of-bounds area. In the absence of such evidence, the disc is considered lost and play proceeds according to rule 804.05.

D. A player whose disc is out-of-bounds shall receive one penalty throw. The player may elect to play the next throw from:

1. The previous lie; or,

2. A lie that is up to one meter away from and perpendicular to the point where the disc last crossed into out-of-bounds, even if the direction takes the lie closer to the target; or,

3. Within the designated drop zone, if provided.

Those options may be limited by the Director as a special condition only by prior approval of the PDGA Tour Manager.

E. The out-of-bounds line represents a vertical plane. Where a player's lie is marked from a particular point within one meter of the out-of-bounds line, the one-meter relief may be taken from a point upward or downward along the vertical plane.

F. If the thrower moves the disc before a determination regarding its out-of-bounds status has been made, the disc shall be considered out-of-bounds.


Why take away the power from the TD to limit the OB action? Is the Tour Manager that bored that he/she needs more emails about where to take your OB shot? Would the TM ever say no? As a TD would you post the "change" in the rule prior to registration?

I'm thinking these rules are being written in preparation for use only on the Tour.
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Jefrey A. Brother
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 25, 2012 6:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
804.03 Interference

...

E. A player whose thrown disc was intentionally interfered with by another player as described in 804.03.D.1 has the option of a re-throw.


Interesting.
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Jefrey A. Brother
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 25, 2012 6:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
804.02 Mandatories

A. A mandatory restricts the path the disc may take to the target. A disc must pass the correct side of the mandatory before the hole is completed. A disc has passed the mandatory once it establishes a position beyond the mandatory line.

1. The mandatory line is the line marked by the director or course designer to indicate when a disc has passed or missed the mandatory.

2. If no line has been marked, the mandatory line is defined as a straight line through the mandatory, perpendicular to the line connecting the mandatory to the previous mandatory, or if there is no previous mandatory, the tee.

3. In the case of a double mandatory when no line has been marked, the mandatory line is the straight line connecting the two mandatories, and extends beyond them in both directions.

B. A throw has missed the mandatory if it passes the incorrect side of the mandatory from the direction of the tee, and establishes a position completely beyond the mandatory line.

C. A throw that has missed the mandatory results in a one-throw penalty. The next throw shall be made from the drop zone, as designated for that mandatory.

D. If no drop zone has been designated, the player shall play from the previous lie.

E. If, after a mandatory has been passed, a subsequent throw crosses the mandatory line on the correct side but in the reverse direction, the mandatory has no longer been passed. The player must still pass the mandatory on the correct side. A line connecting the lies for the hole must pass to the correct sides of all mandatories for the hole.

F. The nearest mandatory which has not yet been passed is considered to be the target for all rules related to marking the lie, stance, obstacles, and relief, if the line of play does not pass to the correct side of that mandatory.


So, if you do come back through the mando, you just negated the first mando pass. Different from the last write were once you passed you were good.

I don't really get the "A line connecting the lies for the hole must pass to the correct sides of all mandatories for the hole" line.
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Thumber
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 25, 2012 6:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jefrey A. Brother wrote:
Quote:
804.05 Lost Disc

A disc shall be declared lost if the player cannot locate it within three minutes after arriving at the spot where it was last seen. Any player in the group or an official may begin the timing of the three minutes, and must inform the group that the timing has begun. All players in the group must assist in searching for the disc. The disc shall be declared lost upon expiration of the three minutes.

A player whose disc is declared lost shall receive one penalty throw. The next throw shall be made from the previous lie.

The Director may designate a drop zone for lost discs on a particular hole. If a drop zone is provided, the player may throw from there instead of from the previous lie. In all cases the original throw plus one penalty throw shall be counted in the player's score.

If it is discovered, prior to the completion of the tournament, that a player's disc that was declared lost had been removed or taken, then the player shall have two throws removed from the score for that hole.

A marker disc that is lost shall be replaced to mark the approximate lie with no penalty.


What kind of hole are you playing where the TD knows to put in a Lost Disc DZ? That's crazy.

I almost lost my marker at LNF. Stupid leaves.


water holes
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Jefrey A. Brother
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 25, 2012 6:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Water holes.

I still forget that water isn't OB.
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Jefrey A. Brother
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 25, 2012 6:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

What if you can see the disc on the bottom, so it's not lost? Play where it lies? I need to play these events where these situations come up.
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Adrian1657
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 26, 2012 7:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

just slip on the old chest waders play where it lies. laughing

they need to define a clear line between rules for every day DG and PDGA Tour / Pro levels rules.
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Thumber
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 26, 2012 7:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Adrian1657 wrote:
just slip on the old chest waders play where it lies. laughing

they need to define a clear line between rules for every day DG and PDGA Tour / Pro levels rules.


Why should there be different rules......IMO they need to clarify the rules and stick to one consistent set. have you ever seen the rules book for Bolf? Its huge, but clear and comprehensive

This is just part of the evolution of the game

and around here (no gators, poison snakes, etc) you should always have the option to play from the water if possible or take relief at the cost of a stroke (I'm looking at you #13 CF)
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burjwahzeh
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 29, 2012 10:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jefrey A. Brother wrote:
Quote:
804.02 Mandatories

A. A mandatory restricts the path the disc may take to the target. A disc must pass the correct side of the mandatory before the hole is completed. A disc has passed the mandatory once it establishes a position beyond the mandatory line.

1. The mandatory line is the line marked by the director or course designer to indicate when a disc has passed or missed the mandatory.

2. If no line has been marked, the mandatory line is defined as a straight line through the mandatory, perpendicular to the line connecting the mandatory to the previous mandatory, or if there is no previous mandatory, the tee.

3. In the case of a double mandatory when no line has been marked, the mandatory line is the straight line connecting the two mandatories, and extends beyond them in both directions.

B. A throw has missed the mandatory if it passes the incorrect side of the mandatory from the direction of the tee, and establishes a position completely beyond the mandatory line.

C. A throw that has missed the mandatory results in a one-throw penalty. The next throw shall be made from the drop zone, as designated for that mandatory.

D. If no drop zone has been designated, the player shall play from the previous lie.

E. If, after a mandatory has been passed, a subsequent throw crosses the mandatory line on the correct side but in the reverse direction, the mandatory has no longer been passed. The player must still pass the mandatory on the correct side. A line connecting the lies for the hole must pass to the correct sides of all mandatories for the hole.

F. The nearest mandatory which has not yet been passed is considered to be the target for all rules related to marking the lie, stance, obstacles, and relief, if the line of play does not pass to the correct side of that mandatory.


So, if you do come back through the mando, you just negated the first mando pass. Different from the last write were once you passed you were good.

I don't really get the "A line connecting the lies for the hole must pass to the correct sides of all mandatories for the hole" line.

I feel insulted by the ambiguity of this rule.

The first nuance: in 804.02 A: You don't pass the mandatory until you establish a position beyond the line. This doesn't appear to happen until the disc comes to rest.

This is a change from the old mandatory rule, where you passed the mandatory when the disc passed the mandatory: this happened IN FLIGHT. As soon as the disc missed the mando, it was considered "DEAD". You couldn't be double-penalized for missing the mando, then rolling OB: you just missed the mando.

The ambiguity:
Let assume a mando that I have to pass on the right hand side.
Let's suppose I throw correctly to the right of a mando, and clear it (i.e. I clearly make the mando in the air, well to the right of the mando, and I clearly cross the mando line as defined in A.2). I throw a nice RHBH spike hyzer, and while going to the right of the mando (correctly), it lands past the mando line (I made it!), but left of the mando. Now look at E, 3rd sentence: The line connecting my lies will NOT pass to the correct side of the mando I just cleared!

While the first sentence in E is a condition, there is nothing in the rule to indicate that this condition applies to the rest of the rule. This is the first ambiguity: does this apply or does it not?
The 804.02 rule defines two methods of determining if you've passed a mando, and they are not compatible. This is a second ambiguity.


I haven't the energy to look at whether missing a mando then going OB creates ambiguities now, since you haven't passed the mando until you establish a position completely beyond the mando line. How do you determine which happened first, for example, when neither OB or the mando is complete until the disc is at rest?

One improvement: F now allows you to follow through on a throw within 10m of a mando, IF the line of play (LOP) passes to the correct side of the mandatory. I'm still not sure why they cling to the stance aspect if the LOP passes to the wrong side, but at least landing close to the mando isn't an automatic "next shot shackling".
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burjwahzeh
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 29, 2012 10:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thumber wrote:
...
This is just part of the evolution of the game

This is an ugly evolution, and I agree that the game doesn't need two sets of rules. It needs one set that it clear and concise. It also needs a case book.

Thumber wrote:
...

and around here (no gators, poison snakes, etc) you should always have the option to play from the water if possible or take relief at the cost of a stroke (I'm looking at you #13 CF)

I steadfastly disagree with this statement. Water is a defined hazard in the sport that demands equal treatment regardless of a person's willingness to compromise their safety or comfort. It's the same no-go zone for everyone. It isn't just an inconvenience.
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