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Thumber
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 27, 2012 1:44 pm    Post subject: Can you Second a Call against yourself? Reply with quote

If I was to foot fault on a drive and it was called by someone on my card, but no one seconded it, could I second the call against me? It would seem the honorable thing to do, but also allows for some manipulation, depending on how good or bad the result of the shot was. I was looking through the rules but couldn't find anyting except 803.4F

F. A stance violation must be clearly called within three seconds after the infraction to be
valid. The call may be made by any member of the group or an official. When the call is made by
a member of the group, it must subsequently be confirmed by another member of the group. A
player shall receive a warning for the first violation of a stance rule in the round.
Subsequent violations of a stance rule in the same round shall incur a one-throw penalty.

can the thrower be the other member of the group>?
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Rolly
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 27, 2012 2:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sounds like it. Thrower can even call himself on it looks like.

I wish the PDGA would fix this rule and force the player to take the worst outcome of the 2 shots they are given, not take the last shot, no matter what happened. More so now it seems one can call them self.
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Thumber
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 27, 2012 2:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The reason i ask is I am pretty sure someone (Maybe Paul) once told me I am not allowed to second a call against myself.

I sent a pm to Chuck Kennedy. Will post his response once recieved
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Rolly
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 27, 2012 2:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'd say the way it is written the rule does not say who can do what,
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Thumber
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 27, 2012 2:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

From Chuck Kennedy

Quote:
Yes, the thrower may second the call. While the mulligan gambit is possible, usually it's the thrower who calls the fault first and is seconded by another player. I think this may be addressed in the next rules update where the thrower cannot initiate the fault call but may second it.

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Rolly
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 28, 2012 4:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thumber wrote:
From Chuck Kennedy

Quote:
Yes, the thrower may second the call. While the mulligan gambit is possible, usually it's the thrower who calls the fault first and is seconded by another player. I think this may be addressed in the next rules update where the thrower cannot initiate the fault call but may second it.


now thats retarded to a certain degree.
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C-Kyle
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 28, 2012 6:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think the thrower if allowed at all should only be allowed to be the first to call it. If they can second it then they don't have to know for sure that they foot faulted they just need to know they get a free shot the first time
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clausr
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 28, 2012 8:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think Chuck has it right. If the thrower makes a shitty throw, no one will call it. Just a warning and no do over.

You don't want throwers initiating do over mulligans on themselves.
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Thumber
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 28, 2012 8:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

clausr wrote:
I think Chuck has it right. If the thrower makes a shitty throw, no one will call it. Just a warning and no do over.

You don't want throwers initiating do over mulligans on themselves.


If you officially warn the thrower they get the do over. If you just do it unofficial, on the side, it doesn't actually mean anything and the first offense officially called would be a warning and a do over
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burjwahzeh
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 28, 2012 9:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Reading this stuff drives me crazy. Rant alert.

I think it's a change of position that you can now "second" your own faults.
* Groan *

They were always against calling yourself because of the free do-over.

There is a problem with the rules that keeps players from being honest about their games:

The Free Do-over.

It's junk!

It needs to be removed from the rules! It's for people that don't know how the game is supposed to be played. It's likely meant to keep their feelings from being hurt. Boo hoo.

The hippie commune mentality that was behind the do-over rule is out of touch with competitive sports. If people's feelings get hurt because of their ignorance, too bad! You don't deserve a second chance in sports.

And do-overs in professional disc golf?
Bwah ha ha ha! Seriously?

The junk is in the rules. All PDGA announcements on this are missing the point:

Do-Overs are garbage that needs to be removed from the rule book.

Rant Over.
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Thumber
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 28, 2012 9:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

So what would you suggest Paul? Say I am off my mark behind a tree and it allows me the space I need to park an approach. If I am on my mark I can't make that shot. I park the approach but get called for the foot foul. Now what? Do I just take a penalty and go to where my shot went as the new lie? The end effect in this scenario is the same. I get a 4 or a circle 4.

Personally I don't think the thrower should be allowed to make a call against themselves. It just opens the game up to gaming (cheating) which should be a DQ but would be tough to prove.
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C-Kyle
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 28, 2012 9:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I would bet that most of the "non-calls" on foot faults are because of the "do-over", which is a big issue. Nobody wants to call a foot fault on a guy who just shot a bad shot because his "do-over" could be great.

My issue with being able to call yourself on a foot fault first is that you could make a bad shot and just pretend like you faulted and then have somebody randomly second it based on pure stupidity. But then you get a second chance with no penalty
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Thumber
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 28, 2012 9:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

C-Kyle wrote:
I would bet that most of the "non-calls" on foot faults are because of the "do-over", which is a big issue. Nobody wants to call a foot fault on a guy who just shot a bad shot because his "do-over" could be great.

My issue with being able to call yourself on a foot fault first is that you could make a bad shot and just pretend like you faulted and then have somebody randomly second it based on pure stupidity. But then you get a second chance with no penalty


agreed 100%. Thrower should not be able to influence in any way
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lissyssil
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 28, 2012 9:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thumber wrote:
So what would you suggest?
No warning. First offence, penalty stroke and rethrow.
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andros
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 28, 2012 9:29 am    Post subject: Re: Can you Second a Call against yourself? Reply with quote

Thumber wrote:

F. A stance violation must be clearly called within three seconds after the infraction to be
valid.
The call may be made by any member of the group or an official. When the call is made by
a member of the group, it must subsequently be confirmed by another member of the group. A
player shall receive a warning for the first violation of a stance rule in the round.
Subsequent violations of a stance rule in the same round shall incur a one-throw penalty.


The first part of this rule is the kicker. The call must be made within 3 seconds.

I don't know about any of you but the 3 seconds after my throw are mostly spent watching where my disc ends up.

Just something to think about.
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Roxie
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 28, 2012 9:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

lissyssil wrote:
Thumber wrote:
So what would you suggest?
No warning. First offence, penalty stroke and rethrow.


This
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burjwahzeh
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 28, 2012 9:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

lissyssil wrote:
Thumber wrote:
So what would you suggest?
No warning. First offence, penalty stroke and rethrow.

Yes.
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burjwahzeh
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 28, 2012 9:45 am    Post subject: Re: Can you Second a Call against yourself? Reply with quote

andros wrote:
The first part of this rule is the kicker. The call must be made within 3 seconds.

I don't know about any of you but the 3 seconds after my throw are mostly spent watching where my disc ends up.

Just something to think about.

The three second rule is saccharine.
It's like making little flowerettes of the sh!t that is the do-over rule.

It's all about the stinkiest part of the rules of disc golf.
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Thumber
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 28, 2012 9:48 am    Post subject: Re: Can you Second a Call against yourself? Reply with quote

burjwahzeh wrote:


It's all about the stinkiest part of the rules of disc golf.


That and the way the practice throw wording is written. No practice throws during a round. Drops are not considered practice throws. Why they have this 2 meter condition is beyond me.
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deuce
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 28, 2012 9:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

burjwahzeh wrote:
Reading this stuff drives me crazy....

...Do-Overs are garbage that needs to be removed from the rule book.


Couldn't agree more. While it's difficult to translate stance violations in DG to violations in ball golf, when do you ever see a "do-over" in ball golf? You screw up? 2 stroke penalty - no warnings. Just look at what happened to Dustin Johnson at the 2010 PGA Championship, or even worse, what happened to Carl Petterson at this year's PGA Championship.
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