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Jefrey A. Brother
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 30, 2012 12:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Holly D wrote:
SeaKyle does have a point you guys.

(Can't believe I'm defending Cyle)


Really? What point does he make? That he thinks that a bag is part of the course and that players should use them and players around to make their shots?
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lissyssil
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 30, 2012 12:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rolly wrote:
Jesus christ c-kyle


frown There's technically nothing wrong with Cyle's reasoning. It's an issue that is not well defined in the rulebook, and therefore one that will forever cause argument.

Upon further consideration, I think there may only be one right answer to this (if the disc has been thrown, and the player has not been asked to move his/her bag):

Leave the bag where it is.

Moving the bag is a conscious activity, and, if the player moves the bag while the disc is in motion, it is consciously altering the course of a thrown disc. (803.07C).

The course of the thrown disc was into the player's bag, until he moved it. The movement of the bag changed the course of the disc.

I think one must consider specifically the layout of the field of play (including bags lying in inopportune locations) at the time at which the throwing player addresses his lie. You wouldn't clear a fallen branch from the green (to restore it to it's "regular" state) while someone is throwing, but may choose to do so after play has completed on the hole (unless in a tournament, which doesn't apply here). In my opinion (and we all have them!), the bag at rest on the green becomes a stationary obstacle until the completion of the throw.

Again, I would never call foul on Shane for picking up the bag, nor would I call foul for him leaving the bag where it is, but I think the right thing to do is to either move it before the throw, or leave it where it is.
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Jefrey A. Brother
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 30, 2012 12:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I knew it. We dealt with this topic before and put it to bed here.
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lissyssil
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 30, 2012 1:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

This thread is now locked? smile
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Rolly
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 30, 2012 1:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

lissyssil wrote:
Leave the bag where it is.



No, you do everything you can short of killing yourslef to move the bag that might alter the course of a disc. Your bag=your responsibility, and your bag is not part of the individual hole, or course, its part of you. Think of it as if its a person, just sitting there watching the disc hit them in the foot. 2 strokes for the foul and one for being a tool.

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Rolly
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 30, 2012 1:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

My wife could get this right, Its golf people. Play it where it lies, and dont interfere with the flight. add up your strokes, dont cheat. Easy stuff.
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Jefrey A. Brother
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 30, 2012 1:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rolly wrote:
My wife could get this right, Its golf people. Play it where it lies, and dont interfere with the flight. add up your strokes, dont cheat. Easy stuff.


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Thumber
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 30, 2012 1:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It was a weird one as i had enough time to process what was going to happen and then grabbed the bag and let the disc roll

Take away is keep your bag out of a position where this could be an issue
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Jefrey A. Brother
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 30, 2012 1:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thumber wrote:

Take away is keep your bag out of a position where this could be an issue


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Jefrey A. Brother
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 30, 2012 1:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jefrey A. Brother wrote:
Thumber wrote:

Take away is keep your bag out of a position where this could be an issue


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And that you CAN'T be stroked if a disc hits your bag.
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Rolly
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 30, 2012 1:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I know what you mean shane,

This was one of the 1st obscure rules i had to figure out on the fly when playing out of town events with st thomas players.

alot of people especially ams think its a stroke if a disc hits your bag.Period.....>
Even if your on your t pad, where your supposed to be and you dont even see the disc coming, "donk" hits your bag.... sarcastic eye roll "thats a stroke" seen it a centenial.
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burjwahzeh
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 30, 2012 1:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm so happy you went back and found that, Geoff.
The take-aways from it as I see and remember it are :
move your bag if asked; and
try not to play a part in someone's shot unless you're doing it for safety.

As for the whole "you're bag, where it was laying, was part of my shot" thing, I equate this with saying you were TRYING TO HIT someone. That doesn't hold water, even if it was only their bag of discs.
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Thumber
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 30, 2012 1:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

burjwahzeh wrote:
I'm so happy you went back and found that, Geoff.
The take-aways from it as I see and remember it are :
move your bag if asked; and
try not to play a part in someone's shot unless you're doing it for safety.

As for the whole "you're bag, where it was laying, was part of my shot" thing, I equate this with saying you were TRYING TO HIT someone. That doesn't hold water, even if it was only their bag of discs.


I remember the start of TOSS last season, or the one before, Bourgie teed off on #4, had a slight saw off and ended up hitting the legs of the stool I was sitting on at tee pad #1. Pretty sure his hitting my stool prevented him from going OB. There were no penalties or warnings required by that situation
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Rolly
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 30, 2012 1:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The rule is poorly written. Shane, like any male could be staring right at the disk, watch it hit the bag, look like he "cognitively" did it, but be day-dreaming of boobies- having no clue what happened. to much interpretation of others thoughts.
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Thumber
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 30, 2012 1:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rolly wrote:
Shane... could ... be day-dreaming of boobies- having no clue what happened.


This sums up 90% of the time I am awake, and 100% when dreaming lol
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Jefrey A. Brother
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 30, 2012 2:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rolly wrote:
The rule is poorly written.


I think it's more of a missing rule. But you're right, to work out this issue it's very ambigious with what's available.
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Rolly
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 30, 2012 2:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It was written well in an old version of the rules I think. then they changed it up I think. They should just make it clear, remove the thoughts out of the rule and players need to lookout for themselves.
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burjwahzeh
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 30, 2012 2:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thumber wrote:
... Bourgie teed off on #4, had a slight saw off and ended up hitting the legs of the stool I was sitting on at tee pad #1. Pretty sure his hitting my stool prevented him from going OB. There were no penalties or warnings required by that situation

I have slight saw offs more regularly than I should. This is such a polite way of saying "that hack nearly fawking killed me with his crappiness". Anyways, hitting your stool would have just left my disc yucky. Didn't I just leave it behind?
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Thumber
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 30, 2012 3:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I asked this same question on dgcr and Chuck Kennedy just posted the following

cjkdisc wrote:
I agree my interpretation potentially sounds unfair and I'm going to ask the RC about it. But the way the Interference rule sections read right now, there's no penalty for a player whose equipment gets struck by another player's disc if the thrower did not ask for it to be moved UNLESS the group agrees that the player deliberately placed their equipment in a location where it had a high chance of being struck. Then the player (or their caddie) owning the equipment can be penalized as an interpretation of 803.07C. The player could potentially be warned (courtesy) even if the disc did not strike the equipment by applying 801.01C.

In the case where the player moves their equipment once another player has released their throw, as in this example, it's unclear whether they can move the bag at that point based on the Obstacle rule about not moving obstacles on the course in front of the thrower's lie (803.05A). For example, we wouldn't want other players (buddies) to freely move a limb out of the way of a roller or air shot while the disc is still moving.

But there's a definite risk for the equipment owner if they try to move their equipment once the thrower's disc is in the air and the disc actually hits the equipment. The group then has to decide if the contact was incidental in which case the disc will be played where it comes to rest which might be OB. Or, does the group think the equipment was intentionally in the wrong place before the throw or did the owner "intentionally" deflect the disc while apparently moving their equipment making it look like an accident. Snarly CSI stuff to consider...

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burjwahzeh
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 30, 2012 3:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thumber wrote:
I asked this same question on dgcr and Chuck Kennedy just posted the following

cjkdisc wrote:
I agree my interpretation potentially sounds unfair and I'm going to ask the RC about it. But the way the Interference rule sections read right now, there's no penalty for a player whose equipment gets struck by another player's disc if the thrower did not ask for it to be moved UNLESS the group agrees that the player deliberately placed their equipment in a location where it had a high chance of being struck. Then the player (or their caddie) owning the equipment can be penalized as an interpretation of 803.07C. The player could potentially be warned (courtesy) even if the disc did not strike the equipment by applying 801.01C.

In the case where the player moves their equipment once another player has released their throw, as in this example, it's unclear whether they can move the bag at that point based on the Obstacle rule about not moving obstacles on the course in front of the thrower's lie (803.05A). For example, we wouldn't want other players (buddies) to freely move a limb out of the way of a roller or air shot while the disc is still moving.

But there's a definite risk for the equipment owner if they try to move their equipment once the thrower's disc is in the air and the disc actually hits the equipment. The group then has to decide if the contact was incidental in which case the disc will be played where it comes to rest which might be OB. Or, does the group think the equipment was intentionally in the wrong place before the throw or did the owner "intentionally" deflect the disc while apparently moving their equipment making it look like an accident. Snarly CSI stuff to consider...

The problem with all of this is "what does the group think", and subjective crap like that. There is no answer to any question here. A group full of Cyles isn't going to make the same ruling as a group full of Evil Tyrant Andros'.
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