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Thumber
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 30, 2012 10:18 am    Post subject: Bags on Hills Reply with quote

On Saturday Mark and I played a match at CF

On #10, mark was putting across the green. I was standing maybe 25 feet downhill from the basket. Mark's put hit the basket and then started rolling. I picked up my bag and let the disc continue.

I have no idea what i was supposed to do. i suspect I am supposed to just leave the bag on the ground and let the disc hit it

Anyone know? I remember something about this on PDGA a couple years ago but couldn't find it
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Jefrey A. Brother
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 30, 2012 10:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Using the following rules:

Quote:
801.01 Courtesy
A. Players should not throw until they are certain that the thrown disc will not distract another player or potentially injure anyone present. Players should watch the other members of their group throw in order to aid in locating errant throws and to ensure compliance with the rules.

B. Players should take care not to produce any distracting noises or any potential visual distractions for other players who are throwing. Examples of discourteous actions are: shouting, cursing, freestyling, slapping course equipment, throwing out of turn, throwing or kicking golf bags, throwing minis, and advancing on the fairway beyond the away player. Shouting at an appropriate time to warn someone in danger of being struck by a disc is not a violation of courtesy.

C. Refusal to perform an action expected by the rules, such as assisting in the search for a lost disc, moving discs or equipment, or keeping score properly, etc., is a courtesy violation.

D. Littering is a courtesy violation.

E. Courtesy dictates that players who smoke should not allow their smoke to disturb other players. Smokers should extinguish their cigarettes and carry their cigarette butts to a trash can. Disposing of cigarette butts by dropping them on the ground is littering.

F. A player violating a courtesy rule may be warned by any affected player, even if from another group, or by an official, with all players of the group advised of the warning. The player shall be assessed one penalty throw for each subsequent courtesy violation of any type in the same round. Repeated violations of courtesy rules may result in disqualification in accordance with Section 3.3 of the Competition Manual.




Quote:
803.07 Interference

A. A thrown disc that hits another player, spectator, or animal shall be played where it comes to rest. A thrown disc that is intentionally deflected or was caught and moved shall be marked as close as possible to the point of contact, as determined by a majority of the group or an official. Alternatively, for intentional interference only, the thrower has the option of taking a re-throw. Players shall not stand or leave their equipment where interference with the flight or path of a disc could easily occur. The away player may require other players to mark their lies or move their equipment before making a throw if the player believes that either could interfere with his or her throw.

B. If a disc at rest on the playing surface or supported by the target is moved, the disc shall be replaced as close as possible to its original location, as determined by a majority of the group or an official. If a marker disc is moved, the marker disc shall be replaced as close as possible to its original location, as determined by a majority of the group or an official. (If the two meter penalty is in effect See also 803.08 D and E for movement of a disc above the playing surface.)

C. Any player who consciously alters the course of a thrown disc, or consciously moves or obscures another player's thrown disc at rest or a marker disc, other than by the action of a competitively thrown disc or in the process of identification, shall receive two penalty throws, without a warning, if observed by any two players or an official.




I would say that if you were aware your bag was in the way, and you could move it, you should. If you were aware your bag was in the way, and you could move it, and you didn't, you could be dinged with a warning or stroke, though it would be tough to prove your "conscious" motives.
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Jefrey A. Brother
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 30, 2012 10:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

You did the right thing by moving your bag.
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lissyssil
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 30, 2012 10:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The honourable thing would have been to leave the bag there, and reduce my 50 foot comeback to a 25 foot comeback!

Kidding. I think you did exactly the right thing. If I recall the discussion from last time this came either here or on the PDGA forums, I didn't ask you to move your bag, which means that had my disc hit it, there would be no interference call against you. Had I asked and you refused, then there's a courtesy violation, and, if the disc hits the bag, an interference call.

If, however, you attempt to pick up the bag, and as you are doing so, the disc hits your bag, there is a case for interference there, but not one that I would have called.

(Most of this is IMHO, BTW)
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Jefrey A. Brother
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 30, 2012 11:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

lissyssil wrote:
The honourable thing would have been to leave the bag there, and reduce my 50 foot comeback to a 25 foot comeback!

Kidding. I think you did exactly the right thing. If I recall the discussion from last time this came either here or on the PDGA forums, I didn't ask you to move your bag, which means that had my disc hit it, there would be no interference call against you. Had I asked and you refused, then there's a courtesy violation, and, if the disc hits the bag, an interference call.

If, however, you attempt to pick up the bag, and as you are doing so, the disc hits your bag, there is a case for interference there, but not one that I would have called.

(Most of this is IMHO, BTW)


It's a grey area for sure, but I would agree with all these scenarios, but you could also argue other sides.

Thumber could have left his bag. He could have lifted it. There aren't any clear "rules" on the matter.
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Thumber
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 30, 2012 11:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

i think once the bag is down and I haven't been asked to move it I am not required to and won't be penalized.

That said, I was also fine to move it

I do wonder what would happen if i hit the disc while trying to move the bag?
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Jefrey A. Brother
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 30, 2012 11:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thumber wrote:
i think once the bag is down and I haven't been asked to move it I am not required to and won't be penalized.


Correct.

Quote:

That said, I was also fine to move it


Yup.

Quote:

I do wonder what would happen if i hit the disc while trying to move the bag?


An argument would start.
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Jefrey A. Brother
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 30, 2012 11:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thumber wrote:

I do wonder what would happen if i hit the disc while trying to move the bag?


Actually, nothing would happen.
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Thumber
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 30, 2012 11:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jefrey A. Brother wrote:
Thumber wrote:

I do wonder what would happen if i hit the disc while trying to move the bag?


Actually, nothing would happen.


what if the hit changed the direction of the roll and the disc went OB, for example?
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julz
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 30, 2012 11:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I thought I remembered a rule that if your bag was hit you got a stroke penalty. was there ever something like that?
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Jefrey A. Brother
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 30, 2012 11:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jefrey A. Brother wrote:
Using the following rules:

Quote:
803.07 Interference

C. Any player who consciously alters the course of a thrown disc, or consciously moves or obscures another player's thrown disc at rest or a marker disc, other than by the action of a competitively thrown disc or in the process of identification, shall receive two penalty throws, without a warning, if observed by any two players or an official.





Did you conscioulsy alter the course of a thrown disc, or was it an accident and not conscious?
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Thumber
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 30, 2012 11:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jefrey A. Brother wrote:
Jefrey A. Brother wrote:
Using the following rules:

Quote:
803.07 Interference

C. Any player who consciously alters the course of a thrown disc, or consciously moves or obscures another player's thrown disc at rest or a marker disc, other than by the action of a competitively thrown disc or in the process of identification, shall receive two penalty throws, without a warning, if observed by any two players or an official.





Did you conscioulsy alter the course of a thrown disc, or was it an accident and not conscious?


Unconcious.....so you would just approximate the disc's location i guess
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Jefrey A. Brother
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 30, 2012 11:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

julz wrote:
I thought I remembered a rule that if your bag was hit you got a stroke penalty. was there ever something like that?


That was a "rumoured" rule that grew wings. I was once called on it. Pulled out the Rule book and asked them to find the rule that covered that. Funny. It didn't exist.
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Jefrey A. Brother
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 30, 2012 11:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thumber wrote:
Jefrey A. Brother wrote:
Thumber wrote:

I do wonder what would happen if i hit the disc while trying to move the bag?


Actually, nothing would happen.


what if the hit changed the direction of the roll and the disc went OB, for example?


Man that would suck.

Quote:
803.07 Interference
A. A thrown disc that hits another player, spectator, or animal shall be played where it comes to rest. A thrown disc that is intentionally deflected or was caught and moved shall be marked as close as possible to the point of contact, as determined by a majority of the group or an official. Alternatively, for intentional interference only, the thrower has the option of taking a re-throw. Players shall not stand or leave their equipment where interference with the flight or path of a disc could easily occur. The away player may require other players to mark their lies or move their equipment before making a throw if the player believes that either could interfere with his or her throw.


I don't see a rule that would make this a "good" situation. I think the disc would be OB and you'd have a drama card for the rest of the round.

What's with the bolded words? Would the re-throw cost strokes?
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Rolly
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 30, 2012 12:04 pm    Post subject: Re: Bags on Hills Reply with quote

Thumber wrote:

I have no idea what i was supposed to do. i suspect I am supposed to just leave the bag on the ground and let the disc hit it



Really? You should just go ahead and read the entire rules book agian.
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Roxie
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 30, 2012 12:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

What about bags that aren't on hills?
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C-Kyle
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 30, 2012 12:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Just so we are clear, technically he consciously altered the path of a thrown disc. He saw the dist heading for the bag but instead of letting the bag stop the disc he moved the bag and then watched the disc continue on an alternate path. One could also argue that the thrower considered the bag sitting there and thought it would stop the disc if it happened to be near it.
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Rolly
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 30, 2012 12:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jesus christ c-kyle
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Jefrey A. Brother
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 30, 2012 12:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

C-Kyle wrote:
Just so we are clear, technically he consciously altered the path of a thrown disc. He saw the dist heading for the bag but instead of letting the bag stop the disc he moved the bag and then watched the disc continue on an alternate path. One could also argue that the thrower considered the bag sitting there and thought it would stop the disc if it happened to be near it.


sarcastic eye roll
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Holly D
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 30, 2012 12:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

SeaKyle does have a point you guys.

(Can't believe I'm defending Cyle)
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