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Jefrey A. Brother
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 22, 2010 10:23 am    Post subject: 803.13 Holing Out Reply with quote

803.13 Holing Out

A. A player who fails to play any hole or fails to hole out on any hole during the round may be disqualified, at the discretion of the director, using the following guidelines:
(1) Holes missed due to late arrival may be scored and penalized according to section 1.5 B of the Competition Manual.
(2) Inadvertently failing to hole out (as determined by a majority of the group or an official) shall result in 2 penalty throws being added to the number of throws plus penalty throws already taken on the hole. The hole shall then be considered completed.
(3) Intentionally failing to hole out (emergency, injury, plane flight, etc.) constitutes withdrawal from competition. The player shall be withdrawn from competition and officially listed as "Did Not Finish" on the scorecard and in the event results.

B. Disc Entrapment Devices: In order to hole out, the thrower must release the disc and it must come to rest supported by the chains and/or the inner cylinder (bottom and inside wall) of the tray. It may be additionally supported by the pole. A disc observed by two or more players of the group or an official to have entered the target below the top of the tray or above the bottom of the chain support is not holed out.

C. Object Targets: In order to hole out, the thrower must release the disc and it must strike the marked target area on the object as specified by the director.
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Jefrey A. Brother
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 22, 2010 10:25 am    Post subject: Re: 803.13 Holing Out Reply with quote

B. Disc Entrapment Devices: In order to hole out, the thrower must release the disc and it must come to rest supported by the chains and/or the inner cylinder (bottom and inside wall) of the tray. It may be additionally supported by the pole. A disc observed by two or more players of the group or an official to have entered the target below the top of the tray or above the bottom of the chain support is not holed out.
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lissyssil
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 22, 2010 11:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Interesting. Hypothetical Situation:

Two players tee off from 1 short at fortune. The first player scores a hole in one, where his disc is supported by the bottom of the basket (the disc is lying flat in the basket).

Player 2 then tees off, and, wonder of wonders, cans his drive as well. Upon walking up to the basket, the players notice that player two's disc is resting, completely supported in the basket on top of player one's disc. Player two's disc is not touching the basket at all.

By 803.13B, has player two holed out? My response is no. What's yours?

Yes, I realize in all fairness, player two has holed out according to the spirit of the game, but can this rule be read such that player two has not?
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andros
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 22, 2010 12:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

That's silly of course it counts. Stop trying to manipulate the rules. Smile
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Holly D
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 22, 2010 12:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It wouldn't count if you're the second player.
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Chuck Shick
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 24, 2010 11:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Courtesy violation on player one for not clearing the basket.
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Jefrey A. Brother
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 06, 2011 10:02 am    Post subject: Re: 803.13 Holing Out Reply with quote

Jefrey A. Brother wrote:
B. Disc Entrapment Devices: In order to hole out, the thrower must release the disc and it must come to rest supported by the chains and/or the inner cylinder (bottom and inside wall) of the tray. It may be additionally supported by the pole. A disc observed by two or more players of the group or an official to have entered the target below the top of the tray or above the bottom of the chain support is not holed out.

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Rolly
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 06, 2011 10:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

player one removes his disc, players 2's lye is then in the basket after 1 shot where it is then holed out.

Last edited by Rolly on Mon Jun 06, 2011 10:10 am; edited 1 time in total
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Jefrey A. Brother
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 06, 2011 10:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Let me re-bold that:

Jefrey A. Brother wrote:
B. Disc Entrapment Devices: In order to hole out, the thrower must release the disc and it must come to rest supported by the chains and/or the inner cylinder (bottom and inside wall) of the tray. It may be additionally supported by the pole. A disc observed by two or more players of the group or an official to have entered the target below the top of the tray or above the bottom of the chain support is not holed out.

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Rolly
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 06, 2011 10:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I dont think this is an issue in lissy's example
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Thumber
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 06, 2011 10:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The whole example is ridiculous. Of course the second shot counts
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Jefrey A. Brother
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 06, 2011 10:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rolly wrote:
I dont think this is an issue in lissy's example


I didn't post it because of Lissy's comment. That was months ago.
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Steve Rydell
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 06, 2011 10:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jefrey A. Brother wrote:
Let me re-bold that:

Jefrey A. Brother wrote:
B. Disc Entrapment Devices: In order to hole out, the thrower must release the disc and it must come to rest supported by the chains and/or the inner cylinder (bottom and inside wall) of the tray. It may be additionally supported by the pole. A disc observed by two or more players of the group or an official to have entered the target below the top of the tray or above the bottom of the chain support is not holed out.


I had a situation where this was ruled upon incorrectly. That would explain the gentle reminder of the rule change.
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Rolly
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 06, 2011 12:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jefrey A. Brother wrote:
Let me re-bold that:

Jefrey A. Brother wrote:
B. Disc Entrapment Devices: In order to hole out, the thrower must release the disc and it must come to rest supported by the chains and/or the inner cylinder (bottom and inside wall) of the tray. It may be additionally supported by the pole. A disc observed by two or more players of the group or an official to have entered the target below the top of the tray or above the bottom of the chain support is not holed out.


this is what you highlighted today, this is what I was refering to.
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Jefrey A. Brother
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 06, 2011 1:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rolly wrote:
Jefrey A. Brother wrote:
Let me re-bold that:

Jefrey A. Brother wrote:
B. Disc Entrapment Devices: In order to hole out, the thrower must release the disc and it must come to rest supported by the chains and/or the inner cylinder (bottom and inside wall) of the tray. It may be additionally supported by the pole. A disc observed by two or more players of the group or an official to have entered the target below the top of the tray or above the bottom of the chain support is not holed out.


this is what you highlighted today, this is what I was refering to.


I actually highlighted/bolded this first:

Jefrey A. Brother wrote:
B. Disc Entrapment Devices: In order to hole out, the thrower must release the disc and it must come to rest supported by the chains and/or the inner cylinder (bottom and inside wall) of the tray. It may be additionally supported by the pole. A disc observed by two or more players of the group or an official to have entered the target below the top of the tray or above the bottom of the chain support is not holed out.


Then you posted about Lissy's point:

Rolly wrote:
player one removes his disc, players 2's lye is then in the basket after 1 shot where it is then holed out.


Then I realized that I had bolded the incorrect part, so I posted:

Jefrey A. Brother wrote:
Let me re-bold that:

Jefrey A. Brother wrote:
B. Disc Entrapment Devices: In order to hole out, the thrower must release the disc and it must come to rest supported by the chains and/or the inner cylinder (bottom and inside wall) of the tray. It may be additionally supported by the pole. A disc observed by two or more players of the group or an official to have entered the target below the top of the tray or above the bottom of the chain support is not holed out.


Then you posted:

Rolly wrote:
I dont think this is an issue in lissy's example


Which was correct, as I was initially trying to point out the the change in the rules about wedged discs.

And then Stevie tried to clear the re-post/re-bold by posting:

Steve Rydell wrote:
Jefrey A. Brother wrote:
Let me re-bold that:

Jefrey A. Brother wrote:
B. Disc Entrapment Devices: In order to hole out, the thrower must release the disc and it must come to rest supported by the chains and/or the inner cylinder (bottom and inside wall) of the tray. It may be additionally supported by the pole. A disc observed by two or more players of the group or an official to have entered the target below the top of the tray or above the bottom of the chain support is not holed out.


I had a situation where this was ruled upon incorrectly. That would explain the gentle reminder of the rule change.


I think it's cleared up now.
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C-Kyle
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 06, 2011 4:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

A disc that enters in the correct direction, bounces off the pole so hard that it becomes wedged in the basket almost as if it were going back out, is the a hole out?...in my understanding of the rule it does not count
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Jefrey A. Brother
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 06, 2011 5:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

C-Kyle wrote:
A disc that enters in the correct direction, bounces off the pole so hard that it becomes wedged in the basket almost as if it were going back out, is the a hole out?...in my understanding of the rule it does not count


I think it would, C-Kyle.

The parameters set up by the almighty PDGA state:
- the thrower must release the disc
and
- it must come to rest supported by the chains and/or the inner cylinder (bottom and inside wall) of the tray, or and it may be additionally supported by the pole.
- A disc observed by two or more players of the group or an official to have entered the target below the top of the tray or above the bottom of the chain support is not holed out.

I think it meets all three.
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C-Kyle
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 07, 2011 4:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It is not supported by the bottom and inside wall as well it has all the same properties about it as one that wedged most of the way through from the outside.
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Rolly
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 07, 2011 4:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

C-Kyle wrote:
A disc that enters in the correct direction, bounces off the pole so hard that it becomes wedged in the basket almost as if it were going back out, is the a hole out?...in my understanding of the rule it does not count


the disc could not wedge in the basket going out, and using the latter 180deg of disc surface(180d closest to the pole) to wedge in the basket on its way out is almost impossible. It would be wedged with the initial 180d of disc surface farthest from the pole, and closest to the part of the basket thats vertical.


Last edited by Rolly on Tue Jun 07, 2011 4:41 am; edited 1 time in total
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lissyssil
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 07, 2011 7:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

C-Kyle wrote:
It is not supported by the bottom and inside wall as well it has all the same properties about it as one that wedged most of the way through from the outside.
It counts. The phrasing "bottom and inside wall" is used to define the inner cylinder of the basket, not to stipulate that the disc must be supported by both the bottom wall and inside wall of the basket.

The property that it does not share with a not-counting wedgie is that the disc in question entered the basket between the top of the tray and the bottom of the chain support, thereby making it a legal hole-out.
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